Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[maniago]

"Turned into?"... that was where the thread STARTED.

oh yeah! I thought I was reading the "DMs bitch about stupid divers" thread. It bounces back and forth. My bad

 

[boulderjohn]

My point is that DMs who have never dived outside of a quarry or small fresh water loch (lake) should not be employed immediately as a DM in say the Florida Keys or the Red Sea without some sort of update. And before somebody comments about the North American Great Lakes I understand that these are almost seas and provide yet another specialist area.

Devon Diver has already mentioned that this update system does exist but apparently is not mandatory. And I also agree that the reverse is true, any DM who has never experienced a cold low viz situation such as in a quarry also needs to have an update course if working in these conditions.

Back on topic about the number of dives etc., having given this some thought over the past few days whilst not having much to do except chat with friends and something else that was mentioned in this thread was the number of hours required to solo on a specific aircraft after training etc.

All very well well having 60 dives but some dives may only last 20 minutes! Perhaps there should be a minimum number of hours too!

Once more, with feeling:

And for that matter, no LDS hires a DM just cause he has a DM card. They hire him/her based on their seasoning with whatever conditions the LDS teaches/dives. Like any business.

Correct.

Some of you folks must think that the interview process for a DM must end something like this:

"OK, it looks as if you have minimal preparation to begin with, and you have no experience whatsoever diving in this area or under these conditions. Fantastic! When can you start?"

In my last work before retiring, I hired hundreds of people. Not once did I hire someone who did not have what I considered to be the minimum amount of experience and training to do a good job.

 

[maniago]

Well said. Next topic please.

 

[Bob DBF]

Going back to the OP’s initial question, about the adequacy of experience requirements, there have been a number of ‘interesting’ responses: In all of these responses, there is a common theme, which necessarily leads to a common question – what is the specific basis for the particular recommendation? Why double the number, why 200 for DM, why ‘bump them up’? And, what does ‘a bit’ mean, for that matter? I think RJP applied the optimal term:This really captures the discussion – the numbers being criticized, or recommended are essentially arbitrary. There is no basis in data, or even reason, for a particular number.

Since the number is arbitrary, the only fix available seems to be raising the arbitrary number and hope for the best.

A better solution would be to have a regional board that tests the knowledge, skills, and demeanor of the candidates before allowing them to become DMC's. Taking the decision away from the instructor, who may have a vested interest because he trained the diver from OW, sold the diver on becoming a DM, and could need unpaid assistants, cash flow or card count. This may raise the quality of "Dive professionals".

I have doubts that this would work out today, but having unbiased testing in a much more impartial manner couldn't hurt. Do this to certify DMC's to train, and after training, to certify the diver as a DM and you may have a start at professional.

They are "life support" you know.





Bob
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There is no problem that can't be solved with a liberal application of sex, tequila, money, duct tape, or high explosives, not necessarily in that order.

 

[iluvtheocean]

just having a DM certification just means you've had the cash & were able to meet all the requirements to earn it. It does not mean anybody will hire you unless you have the experience that they are looking for just like manigo & boulderjohn said unless they are just looking for a deck monkey. It's the same for anything. anybody can get a bachelor's or an MCSE, etc. but finding a job and actually getting hired is another story.

 

[Bob DBF]

just having a DM certification just means you've had the cash & were able to meet all the requirements to earn it. It does not mean anybody will hire you unless you have the experience that they are looking for just like manigo & boulderjohn said unless they are just looking for a deck monkey. It's the same for anything. anybody can get a bachelor's or an MCSE, etc. but finding a job and actually getting hired is another story.

You have to meet the requirements as decided by one instructor. The example of a bachelors or MCSE are not conferred by the one instructor you pay to give you those certs.

If one wants to be looked at as a professional then have a system that will consistently produce professionals. Otherwise, as you say, DM means Deck Monkey and the respect that deserves.


Bob

 

[TMHeimer]

Bob, I tend to agree with your "doubts". Raising the # of dives may improve things a bit. School teachers have all sorts of academic AND performance requirements (aka "student teachers"). Yet I met a number of lemons during my career. Maybe it's not an exact analogy.

 

[endurodog]

Ok I'm gonna quota another person in this thread. No one is answering these questions. Maybe some are just blowing off steam, but to really fix a problem these all need to be answered?


What is the problem being addressed? Can you go through each of the proposed solutions and explain why it is so important that the change be made? For example, when we read through the annual DAN fatality report, is there an inordinate number of cases of people who learn to dive in inland lakes dying when they find themselves in salt water instead of fresh water? Are people with supposedly substandard Master Scuba Diver credentials dying as a result of carrying a card in their wallet (that no one asks to see) that suggests more skills than they actually have?

Is the proposed solution proportional to the problem? Once you have identified the level of the problem to be solved, define the importance of that problem before proposing a proportional solution. For example, inland DMs primarily carry tanks and watch students in a swimming pol or lake to make sure they don't drown while the instructor is working with them. Are god-like diving skills really necessary for that task? Does it really take decades of experience and training to be able to show students how to do basic OW dives like clearing a mask?

What is the financial impact of your solution? What will the costs be for the agency? The diver? Will anyone be willing to pay those costs to achieve that solution? If not, is it your belief that only a tiny handful of the most elite and wealthy people around the world should be allowed to dive? If so, where and how will they dive when all the equipment manufacturers, local dive shops, and resort area dive operations that depend upon volume sales for their livelihood go out of business?


_________________________

Even if we meet the most stringent suggestions proposed here will that solve the problems you have seen of bad dive masters or are some just not cut out for it no matter the number of dives or years of cert? Do some that were good at one time burn out and should leave?

But the biggest question is the problems that have been observed that prompted the thoughts of more dives to cert. Would more dives to qualify as DM have solved that issue? The problem DM that you have witnessed, I assume you have seen problem DMs working since you commented. Would have raising the number of dives to lets say 150 solved that????

 

[tritonch01]

I had 240+ dives when I came to do my Instructor course. One main reason I did my Instructor was because I was facing redundancy in my previous job and I thought I'd better seek a new career.
Although I had 240+ dives in UK fresh and Salt water, Caribbean, Red Sea, Thailand, Australia and all with boat and shore diving, I personally felt I hadn't got enough experience to be in charge of other peoples lives.
With over 9000 dives now, it may sound arrogant to say I feel Instructors should have 250 logged dives and DM with 100 to START the course.
It is possible to become a Technical Instructor with 270 dives. Personally I would much rather that was 1000 logged dives with specifics to depth and staged decompression.
These are all my own feelings and are rather controversial. I just know how I felt when I was coming through the 'ranks' and I would say it is a case that I'm an anorak and did a lot of my own studying as it was in the days of NVQ training in the UK and much training and quality was missing. Fortunately, this not being what I like gave me empathy with my students.

 

[explorer08]

Originally posted by boulderjohn:
The consensus of the thread so far is that the number of dives you have is not as important as the skills you acquired during those dives.

OK, what people are forgetting is that there are classes involved in addition to the dives. You should not become a DM or an instructor until you display the skills required for those certifications, and the number of dives is merely a technicality. When I started my DM training, i was not good enough to be a DM. When I started my instructor training, I was not good enough to be an instructor. But each course included a heck of a lot of training that took me from where I was to where I needed to be.

As long as you get the proper training and are certified when you have demonstrated the appropriate skills, I don't think the number of dives matters. Just make sure you have the right people in charge of your training.

John, I wonder a little bit to read that post from you.
I think we both know that being a DM or an instructor means more than knowing what is in the books and having demonstrated the appropriate skills. If you reduce it just to that, than you may be true that the number of dives doesn't matter. But being a DM or an instructor also means to bear the responsibility for safety and health of your student divers and not to forget for their comfort as well. And that is something you can't learn from the books and in no course. For this you need a certain amount of experience, which you normally can't gain in 60 or 100 dives. You also can't gain this experience in courses where you are just dealing with peers, playing students.
As others mentioned before, it is very difficult to moor it to a number when someone is ready for DM or instructor. But I think we can get an agreement, that it is necessary to gain experience under various conditions, that you should have had to deal with various situations and some experience with the reaction to (real) problems and - particularly for instructors - some experience in dealing with real student divers.
Imho that is not possible to gain in 60 or 100 dives. I don't know at the moment myself, how to implement this in a requirements profile for DM and instructor candidates. Maybe it may help to raise the bar for DM candidates to 100 dives and for instructor candidates to the present level for CD candidates - 350 dives. (BTW, IMHO a CD with 350 dives is a bad joke too, but because of the different selection process for candidates this number is theoretically only anyway.)
At least, instructor candidates should bring proof of acting as DM in a distinct number of real courses, with real student divers and the number should be more than one on each level.

Finally I think, I am not telling a secret, saying that it is nearly impossible for a DM with 60 or an instructor with 100 dives, to find a job in any serious dive center. These guys certificates are usually just worth for displaying the certificate at home at the wall and for presenting the card on the dive boat during vacations.