Your favorite certification agency ...
- Thread starter CAPTAIN SINBAD
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
There are a number of problems with this. It's very difficult, fairly expensive, and extremely time consuming to make such a comparison. I know because I did it about 15 or so years ago. I included only three agencies (PADI, NAUI, and YMCA) in my study. There were, when I last counted, about 50 agencies. Some agencies write standards that are very difficult to pick out exact requirements. I don't know, but it almost seems that they are intentionally written that way. If someone were to put a study together, it would be difficult to get it published. I originally put mine together for my own education/use. Many people think that because they took a class and were certified through Agency A and learned Skill 1; that Agency A requires Skill 1. Agency A may not require it, but the instructor for their particular class may have included it. If Agency A doesn't require the skill and the study reports they don't require the skill; the author will get hundreds of letters/e-mails/posts from people who've never read the standards arguing the point. Even instructors from Agency A will argue that skills are required that clearly are not. Even after those hurdles, the author and publisher may be the victim of a lawsuit that will cost many thousands of dollars to defend. A few years after my study was published, an agency filed a lawsuit against the publisher.
It wasn't on ScubaBoard. It was on DiverLink. DiverLink went out of business several years ago. There are several copies out in the cyber world, but they are all out of date. DiverLink had it on as long as they were in business. A judge tossed out the lawsuit. They agency that filed the suit was ordered to pay the legal expenses of both DiverLink and myself.
drrich2
Contributor
The question of preferred agency seems to vary with who's deciding (e.g.: diver, instructor, dive shop), goal (e.g.: fair diver, good dive, well-honed diver) and what aspect of the agency is considered (e.g.: how high the minimum standards are, what latitude it gives instructors to require more, how user-friendly educational materials are for self-study, how well it supports dive shops & instructors).
Often on the forum people bash PADI as the largest target, on the grounds that some other agencies 'demand more' out of basic OW course divers, or at least allow instructors to demand more.
So awhile back, I asked what drives a dive business to choose an agency (it also dealt with independent instructors)? After all, if a number of other agencies are markedly superior and most of us ought to be dancing to the GUE/CMAS/Fill-In-Your-Favorite beat, why do PADI and the similar SSI when combined so dominate in a good-sized chunk of the world (or so it seems to me)?
Some of those reasons people gave:
1.) PADI runs as a business, less like an exclusive club.
2.) Marketing (your favorite agency may be the one you heard of first).
3.) Lower basic OW course requirements are less a barrier to entry by the 'dive curious' potential diver.
4.) Conformity to potential employers (e.g.: become a PADI instructor if most dive shops that might employ you are PADI).
5.) LDS support - I'm not in the dive shop business and don't know the specifics.
6.) PADI insurance for dive boats is considered very good, at least in Northern California.
7.) Modular diver progression is less an obstacle and more 'people friendly' (more accessible to more people).
8.) At least one instructor found PADI's member support (when contacted) to be good.
On the face of it, this may not seem to directly pertain to the OP, but remember the old adage about 'voting with your feet.' A lot of dive shops & independent instructors vote for PADI as their favorite agency by giving them their business.
Doesn't mean PADI's the best. But it says something.
Richard.
Often on the forum people bash PADI as the largest target, on the grounds that some other agencies 'demand more' out of basic OW course divers, or at least allow instructors to demand more.
So awhile back, I asked what drives a dive business to choose an agency (it also dealt with independent instructors)? After all, if a number of other agencies are markedly superior and most of us ought to be dancing to the GUE/CMAS/Fill-In-Your-Favorite beat, why do PADI and the similar SSI when combined so dominate in a good-sized chunk of the world (or so it seems to me)?
Some of those reasons people gave:
1.) PADI runs as a business, less like an exclusive club.
2.) Marketing (your favorite agency may be the one you heard of first).
3.) Lower basic OW course requirements are less a barrier to entry by the 'dive curious' potential diver.
4.) Conformity to potential employers (e.g.: become a PADI instructor if most dive shops that might employ you are PADI).
5.) LDS support - I'm not in the dive shop business and don't know the specifics.
6.) PADI insurance for dive boats is considered very good, at least in Northern California.
7.) Modular diver progression is less an obstacle and more 'people friendly' (more accessible to more people).
8.) At least one instructor found PADI's member support (when contacted) to be good.
On the face of it, this may not seem to directly pertain to the OP, but remember the old adage about 'voting with your feet.' A lot of dive shops & independent instructors vote for PADI as their favorite agency by giving them their business.
Doesn't mean PADI's the best. But it says something.
Richard.
My favorite agency is PSAI. Why? Because if I don't say that I'll lose my job.
Reasons I am PSAI:
As the training director, I am not allowed to teach for other agencies as it is a conflict of interest, but PSAI instructors and instructor trainers are allowed to be affiliated with and teach for other organizations.
Reasons I am PSAI:
- Quality training that strives to provide the safest information and procedures
- Sexy C-cards
- ISO 9001 quality rating
- No shop affiliation needed
- Written standards favor the instructor rather than be written to protect the agency and hang the instructor out to dry
- Manuals for all classes
- Freedom to teach using any appropriate materials including those of other agencies
- Freedom to choose gear and gases appropriate for the dive
- International acceptance
- Great people
- If you like your dive plan you can keep your dive plan.
As the training director, I am not allowed to teach for other agencies as it is a conflict of interest, but PSAI instructors and instructor trainers are allowed to be affiliated with and teach for other organizations.
Last edited:
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
For OW students, I only teach NASE.
1) No snorkel required!
2) No CESAs in OW
3) Students are required to be neutral and in trim for their entire dive
4) No fin pivots
5) No shop affiliation required nor are instructors penalized for not being with a shop
Are there more? Sure. I'm just out of time.
1) No snorkel required!
2) No CESAs in OW
3) Students are required to be neutral and in trim for their entire dive
4) No fin pivots
5) No shop affiliation required nor are instructors penalized for not being with a shop
Are there more? Sure. I'm just out of time.
OP
CAPTAIN SINBAD
Contributor
I have had the pleasure to sit down with Jeff Charleston as he explained PSAI standards. I must say that of all the agencies, PSAI made a lot of sense. Specially the narc management courses and the way the deep diving part is laid out. Even the Advanced Buoyancy Control and Trim class was more giving and then demanding than "Peak Buoyancy" classes done else where. The only area where I felt they could improve was flashier/glossier training manuals. I personally like PSAI books more but if you were to put PADI OW book and PSAI OW book, then just the gloss / sexiness factor of PADI "course pack" would cause a lot of new potential divers to go for PADI even though the actual training there is shallow.
CristinnaP
New
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 1
- # of dives
My husbund is a PADI and NAUI Instructor, with many years of experience and he adviced me to attend NAUI courses for the way they are structured, in a facilitative manner. Up untill a few months ago, I wasn't interested in getting a certification, he taught me what was necessary. But , one day, I made some digging, found Dipndive.com and decided to grab the gear and enroll to these courses, without him knowing anything . Now, I think that NAUI is a good choice in diver's education, with a complete range of trainings, from skin diver to instructor and specific courses, like diving with nitrox; of course, it is very important the relationship between student and instructors, besides all other matters.
Mr. Black
Contributor
The short answer:
As a customer, agency is a secondary concern to me. I seek out specific instructors. Horses for courses.
Wanna do wreck penetration in South East Asia ? The guy I will send you to is with ANDI, the other guy I would send you to as a fallback is with TDI.
Overhead in the Pacific North West ? My man is GUE. Same in Florida ? My recommendation teaches under TDI.
Wanna learn basic Tec and Deco procedures in Asia ? The guy I would send you to happens to do it under PADI / DSAT Tec Rec. I would have never thought of anything from PADI being good for Tech but to my surprise it is a pretty good course if taught correctly. This right there told me that agency might not be everything.
Deep deep in Hong Kong ? I will refer you to an IANTD guy.
The long answer:
I started off as a totally uninformed diver-by-accident after seeing a PADI shop do a free pool session as a marketing tool to sell DSD in a resort hotel that I was staying at during a business trip. I would suspect that most noobs start off this way as PADI has aweome marketing clout in most parts of the world. Heck, they even managed to become a dictionary word. Something Xerox and Google managed to pull off I now see marketing billboards that say stuff like "Get your PADI here!".
Fast forward a few weeks and I was enrolled in PADI Open Water.
A year later I was PADI AOW and had been dealing and diving with a bunch of different PADI operators around the world.
Not quite satisfied - mainly because the certification titles do not match the level of skill I perceived to have attained after completing these courses - I started looking around for what else is out there. I mean, come on. You tell me I am an ADVANCED OPEN WATER DIVER. I book on a dive boat in Cape Town, South Africa and they politely tell me that I need to own and know how to operate a DSMB to dive with them. PADI call me an Advanced Open Water diver and never taught me DSMB Employment. And they let me progress to this level without having taught me rescue skills. Ridiculous. Then again, NAUI and SSI would have probably done exactly the same thing. The minimum standards are very similar and most operators will limit course duration for reasons of profitability. There's no spare time to go beyond the minima.
Came across GUE videos on Youtube. Was immediately hooked on GUE.
Met excellent divers on random holiday dive boats who were absolutely rock solid in the water where everyone else was flailing around and getting flustered. Chatted with them and found out that they were GUE.
Purchased various GUE books and finished them thoroughly impressed. For a while there it was looking like GUE was going to be the holy grail for me.
Then I found some incompatibilities where the GUE philosohpy would not gel with the realities of diving as I see them. In (my) real life I will be solo sometimes. With a 40 cu ft pony and various safety devices to ensure self-sufficiency. In real life I will sometimes dive deeper than 100 feet without Helium. In real life I may do an open water dive in twins with a buddy who is in side-mount. This made me back off the GUE concept a little and give up on finding the holy grail.
Instead I look at what I am trying to accomplish, who will teach me to do it safely and what kind of diving does my prospective instructor do in his private time. I would not do a dry-suit course in Thailand unless the instructor for some reason dives dry a lot (techie?). I would not do a wreck course on Koh Tao with a young, freshly minted PADI OWSI unless the instructor is a seasoned wreck diver with current experience in this style of diving.
Agency totally does not play a role for me anymore. I have no favorite agency because there is no perfect agency.
As a customer, agency is a secondary concern to me. I seek out specific instructors. Horses for courses.
Wanna do wreck penetration in South East Asia ? The guy I will send you to is with ANDI, the other guy I would send you to as a fallback is with TDI.
Overhead in the Pacific North West ? My man is GUE. Same in Florida ? My recommendation teaches under TDI.
Wanna learn basic Tec and Deco procedures in Asia ? The guy I would send you to happens to do it under PADI / DSAT Tec Rec. I would have never thought of anything from PADI being good for Tech but to my surprise it is a pretty good course if taught correctly. This right there told me that agency might not be everything.
Deep deep in Hong Kong ? I will refer you to an IANTD guy.
The long answer:
I started off as a totally uninformed diver-by-accident after seeing a PADI shop do a free pool session as a marketing tool to sell DSD in a resort hotel that I was staying at during a business trip. I would suspect that most noobs start off this way as PADI has aweome marketing clout in most parts of the world. Heck, they even managed to become a dictionary word. Something Xerox and Google managed to pull off I now see marketing billboards that say stuff like "Get your PADI here!".
Fast forward a few weeks and I was enrolled in PADI Open Water.
A year later I was PADI AOW and had been dealing and diving with a bunch of different PADI operators around the world.
Not quite satisfied - mainly because the certification titles do not match the level of skill I perceived to have attained after completing these courses - I started looking around for what else is out there. I mean, come on. You tell me I am an ADVANCED OPEN WATER DIVER. I book on a dive boat in Cape Town, South Africa and they politely tell me that I need to own and know how to operate a DSMB to dive with them. PADI call me an Advanced Open Water diver and never taught me DSMB Employment. And they let me progress to this level without having taught me rescue skills. Ridiculous. Then again, NAUI and SSI would have probably done exactly the same thing. The minimum standards are very similar and most operators will limit course duration for reasons of profitability. There's no spare time to go beyond the minima.
Came across GUE videos on Youtube. Was immediately hooked on GUE.
Met excellent divers on random holiday dive boats who were absolutely rock solid in the water where everyone else was flailing around and getting flustered. Chatted with them and found out that they were GUE.
Purchased various GUE books and finished them thoroughly impressed. For a while there it was looking like GUE was going to be the holy grail for me.
Then I found some incompatibilities where the GUE philosohpy would not gel with the realities of diving as I see them. In (my) real life I will be solo sometimes. With a 40 cu ft pony and various safety devices to ensure self-sufficiency. In real life I will sometimes dive deeper than 100 feet without Helium. In real life I may do an open water dive in twins with a buddy who is in side-mount. This made me back off the GUE concept a little and give up on finding the holy grail.
Instead I look at what I am trying to accomplish, who will teach me to do it safely and what kind of diving does my prospective instructor do in his private time. I would not do a dry-suit course in Thailand unless the instructor for some reason dives dry a lot (techie?). I would not do a wreck course on Koh Tao with a young, freshly minted PADI OWSI unless the instructor is a seasoned wreck diver with current experience in this style of diving.
Agency totally does not play a role for me anymore. I have no favorite agency because there is no perfect agency.
You know, the other thing that affects this thread is what agency means to a diver, and what it means to an instructor or a dive shop. GUE, for example, does little or nothing for a dive shop. They don't do very much agency promotion at all (most of it is done by word of mouth from students). They don't provide dive shops with marketing tools or software, or education on marketing. (Whether what PADI provides is useful, or how many shops or instructors actually make use of it, is beyond my ken, but at least they have those things on offer.) From from offering referral programs, GUE doesn't have a mechanism for doing that. GUE doesn't have regional representatives to interface with shops/instructors, and their instructors courses are not local unless you happen to live where they are given.
For a diver, one agency may seem like the best. From a shop's standpoint, the choice could be entirely different.
For a diver, one agency may seem like the best. From a shop's standpoint, the choice could be entirely different.
Very interesting and thoughtful response. Thanks for that.
Similar threads
