Why isn't the Freedom Plate DIR compliant?

[danvolker]

I'm working on a STA right at the moment so people can use wings with no slots.
The plate will be available the way it is now with welded on rails or plain with a STA.
I prefer the simplicity of a single piece design myself, but see the need for a STA because I know there are slottless wings out there.
The STA design may add 1/2" or possibly more metal that will keep the tank away from the body a little more, but it will still be way better that some other plates are these days just because the way the Freedom Plate is cut it allows the plate to sink into the valley between your shoulder blades so nicely like no other plate can. And now with the new Contour shape it gives it an even further measure of comfort.
I think George would be thrilled to use one, if you're saying he only likes to do fun wetsuit recreational dives now. That's Great! he went full circle.
Most people I know who get so deeply into tech when it finally runs it course they just quit diving all together. I've seen this a lot, it's like they can't allow themselves to go back.

I was mistaken about GUE then from what I'm learning now. I thought they did have an open water course.
I didn't fully understand thet they are a project minded tech agency only.
I remember years ago MHK and a few of his buddies were hanging out on a purely recreational board in Socal (diver.net) and was thrashing on everyone for everything. These people on that board were just weekend Catalina looky loo's and charter boat fun divers. I got thrashed on along with others, some of them so bad that they either quit the board or quit diving all together. There were even some threatened law suits over some of what was said. I don't know to this day if he was a rouge or was supported by the leadership in FL.
Anyway, I thought MHK once mentioned that GUE ws indeed starting their version of an OW course, but I guess I was wrong.

So now I see a huge hole in diving.
You have PADI with their training, then you have GUE with their top notch tech goal training, and a huge vast no mans land in between.

Eric, this is part of the problem -- there is a little problem with GUE wanting to be "all they can be" and also having been created to train the best Cave and Tech Divers. They actually DO have a basic Open water course...My friend Errol ( one of the original GUE instructors from inception) just taught 2 non-divers an OW class about 2 months ago...From the one class, a week I believe, they finished with Fundies level skills. They had no bad habits to break--they were a "clean slate" to train from....Errol said it was very easy for him to get these two divers to Fundies level in one class, because of the lack of bad habits and incorrect skills. So GUE had been asked by many to create an OW course for years.... they did create one over a year ago, but they don't really know where it fits or how and if to market it. It costs way more than double what a normal OW class costs.....of course, the divers come out with diving skills beyond DM level, and a Nitrox cert is included. So for non-divers that really want to learn how to dive, and not make a half-as*ed effort, this could be marketable----but I don't see this as happening, because it is not feasible to tell non-divers they should become tech or cave divers---and GUE has no intelligent way to process this OW class within it's core direction. This is to say it is not "intelligent" to purposely omit over 99% of the world's non-divers, if you have an Open water class that is for "non-divers" to get certified with.

Psychologists would say this should be causing some significant Cognitive Dissonance for JJ and the others creating the directions for GUE.
.................. It could be that the only way to make this better, is to make it worse

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

I think they should care more about the 90% of recreational divers.
These are the people that could benefit the most, and a very large market to tap. I've done some deductions based on single tank wing sales, and it is my opinion that over 90% of BP/W users use them with single tanks. And I'm willing to bet that there are more non GUE trained divers using BP/W's in the whole population of BP/W usage.

This is right on target. Here in SoCal, we see a ton of serious divers using single tank BP/W setups. However, very few of these are GUE/DIR divers. (I deduce this by their lack of a long hose and other tech accoutrements.) They use BP/W because this setup is the most solid, comfortable and practical for cold water diving here. They use single tanks because that's what the local boats provide.

I'm willing to bet that most of these people couldn't care less about their gear being GUE or DIR "approved". The rest of their gear isn't DIR anyway: they tend to use BC inflater integrated alternate air, consoles, and very few bolt snaps. Quite simply, they see BP/W as the best BCD solution for diving in our region. I know because I was one of these divers before I switched to long hoses and sidemount.

I think a lot of these people get sold on the BP/W setup checking out one another's gear on the local boat dives. It's surprising how many SoCal dive shops stock at least a little BP/W gear. Some of them like Beach Cities Scuba and Hollywood Divers carry quite a lot of it.

So you already know that the group of "advanced rec" divers is probably a much bigger market for you to tap than GUE and hard core tech divers. You shouldn't worry about using GUE approval to get to these people. What you need is more divers on open boat trips using the plate. Then it will sell itself...

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I switched to a Hogarthian configuration around the time of the rec.scuba wars only because a friend told me the advantages of each piece of gear without the name calling that went on there. I believe MHK turned a lot more people away from DIR than he recruited.

The water I dive in is in the high 40s to mid 50s year round. I let a friend borrow my wetsuit several years ago and never asked for it back. I don't even want to think about diving wet here. I dive a big heavy cordura drysuit that is a pain to don/doff but keeps me dry. After years of trial and error I finally got my dry gloves situation under control and they no longer leak. XL Jetfins have a pocket that is just a little too tight for my boots, so I use XXL Jetfins with their giant pocket. Bungee straps are required just to keep the fins from falling off. When I make tech dives I use my Halcyon plate, steel doubles, aluminum deco bottle and 55 lb. wing. This is heavy and uncomfortable out of the water, but it's what I've used for more than a dozen years.

The only piece of gear I use that is truly comfortable is the Freedom plate. More than 99% of my dives are single tank recreational dives. I use a Halcyon wing that I modified to fit the Freedom plate. When the wing finally wears out I will get another brand that has slots in the right place. I have used Eric's plate on warm water trips wearing a T-shirt and shorts and still don't notice it on my back.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

This is right on target. Here in SoCal, we see a ton of serious divers using single tank BP/W setups. However, very few of these are GUE/DIR divers. (I deduce this by their lack of a long hose and other tech accoutrements.) They use BP/W because this setup is the most solid, comfortable and practical for cold water diving here. They use single tanks because that's what the local boats provide.

I'm willing to bet that most of these people couldn't care less about their gear being GUE or DIR "approved". The rest of their gear isn't DIR anyway: they tend to use BC inflater integrated alternate air, consoles, and very few bolt snaps. Quite simply, they see BP/W as the best BCD solution for diving in our region. I know because I was one of these divers before I switched to long hoses and sidemount.

I think a lot of these people get sold on the BP/W setup checking out one another's gear on the local boat dives. It's surprising how many SoCal dive shops stock at least a little BP/W gear. Some of them like Beach Cities Scuba and Hollywood Divers carry quite a lot of it.

So you already know that the group of "advanced rec" divers is probably a much bigger market for you to tap than GUE and hard core tech divers. You shouldn't worry about using GUE approval to get to these people. What you need is more divers on open boat trips using the plate. Then it will sell itself...

Maybe I'm imagining this, but part of the reason I was looking for GUE approval is because no matter if people are GUE/DIR or not, love them or hate them, people still equate them somewhat with BP/W usage.
I was figuring that if GUE officially approved of it for single tank non argon use then it would somehow click with people that it must really be OK to use, even if they are not gue trained. You know how people are.
But if it's not going to happen then that's life, and that's OK.
I'm not taking it as 'I've had my hat handed to me', I'm seeing it as 'now I know for sure and can move on'.

I was presented with a challenge, and my type A personality is such that I can not let things go sometimes until I exhaust all possibilities.
In other words, I have a really hard time giving up.
Many other people would have given up on a project like mine years ago once they hit some of the roadblocks I have hit.
I've been at this for over 10 years now and still only sold under 400 units. That's a disaster in most marketers minds. What keeps me going is the fact that everybody who has one AND USES IT absolutely loves it and I have never had one single unit returned because of dissatisfaction, although the offer always stands - If you don't like it for any reason send it back for a full refund.

I do have a cult following. I have sold some customers up to 4 - 5 plates of varying models. One guy has every model that ever came out.
My job is to make sure everybody at least knows about it. Even if only 2 percent of those people bite that's fine, but at least I'll know that rock was turned over.


So from here I have decided the best path for me to follow is to bring the plate directly to the people through dive club presentations and hands on demos. These would be all pre-arranged presentations with sign ups and would be attended by people who are specifically interested in the product. First do a class presentation followed by a hands on demo.

I know the dive shops will not carry the product. There is way too much baggage between them and companies like AL and SP with their aggregate sales quotas and profit margins, it's almost like they own and dictate gear sales policy in these LDS's. It's not like the old days when a small company could run a box of stuff down to the LDS and they shook hands and the LDS hung it up on display. The recreational market is all but sewn up by the big guys.
The shops that do carry plates I found don't want it either because they already have plates so one more will only dilute the sales of other plates.
They can't afford to hold that much stock.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

I know the dive shops will not carry the product. There is way too much baggage between them and companies like AL and SP with their aggregate sales quotas and profit margins, it's almost like they own and dictate gear sales policy in these LDS's. It's not like the old days when a small company could run a box of stuff down to the LDS and they shook hands and the LDS hung it up on display. The recreational market is all but sewn up by the big guys.
The shops that do carry plates I found don't want it either because they already have plates so one more will only dilute the sales of other plates.
They can't afford to hold that much stock.

This is sad. As a consumer, I'd be upset that good products are being kept from me because of this. You've been at this a while, so I assume you've already tried getting stocked at LDS's in SoCal? Or just in the Bay Area?

If this is so, then I guess guerrilla tactics will be your only way forward. Have you tried eBay or Craigslist? True, these are mostly used by bargain hunters, but you never know.

 

[JamesK]

The shops that still do the entire "run things down to the shop and shake hands" are mainly tech shops. LoL. Catch 22 huh?

As for GUE courses, http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/Training/Recreational. Not sure why Rec 2 is not listed.

 

[TSandM]

No -- GUE DOES have an OW class (I know someone who is taking it this weekend, in fact!). And Fundies has a rec pass, designed for the single tank diver. One of the reasons I endlessly promote Fundies is because it IS a class open the recreational diver, to bring skills up to a "technical" level, without requiring taking a technical class. But although those recreational classes EXIST, they exist within the system that is designed to make it possible and easy for that single-tank recreational diver to move along the training progression, should he or she choose to do so. I'm a good example of this -- as I've already written in this thread, I took Fundies in a single tank with no goal other than to become a better diver; along the way, I discovered cave diving and fell in love, and the system I was being educated within made it as easy as it could possibly have been to continue my training to that level.

Personally, I'd much rather see someone in your plate than in any standard BC, and I see (with the exception of not being able to use Argon, which I don't use any more since Santi's vest came into my life ) little downside to it, if any, for single tank diving. And all the objections are totally valid, that most people do only that, that not many recreational divers use Argon, and that many divers will end up owning more than one plate anyway. Which is why I keep saying that nobody would get thrown out of a Fundies class for showing up in a Freedom Plate, because I'm sure they wouldn't be. The shortcomings would be pointed out during the gear section of the class -- again, with an eye to scaling.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Six Freedom plate users

Jon Davies, Frank O'Donnell and Eric Sedletzky

Merry Passage, Phil Garner and Patrick Smith

 

[Peter_C]

I think on the Peace trip, out of 17 divers, there was only one or two jacket BC's, the majority were Freedom Plate users, and then a couple of us were diving doubles. Most everyone I dive with, uses single tanks and are recreational divers.

Eric, now I understand more of your disdain for "DIR", and that it was from long ago. Let it go... I would say Ryan, Claudette, myself, and others have shown you it is a select few jerks that are just part of society, and will bring a bad name to whatever they are part of. "I knew this one auto body guy who ripped everyone off and did coke all day"...They are ALL bad. See my point? Most people are good, and someone we can quickly call a friend

 

[RJP]

I know the dive shops will not carry the product. There is way too much baggage between them and companies like AL and SP with their aggregate sales quotas and profit margins, it's almost like they own and dictate gear sales policy in these LDS's. It's not like the old days when a small company could run a box of stuff down to the LDS and they shook hands and the LDS hung it up on display.

Do you think your "wholesale" pricing is conducive to getting the Freedom Plate "hung up on display" by an LDS?

From what I can gather, at retail the Freedom Plate costs more than a DR or Hollis plate, and about the same as a Halcyon plate. I'm guessing that with far smaller volumes that your cost per unit is disproportionately higher. Wondering if you're also pricing yourself into a corner - both retail and wholesale.

PS - I'm not asking you to reveal your wholesale pricing strategy, just asking the question.