Why isn't the Freedom Plate DIR compliant?

[JamesK]

One place I sharply disagree with GUE is this notion of gear that will allow a diver to progress into tech or cave. PfcAJ is absolutely right that this IS a big deal to GUE....and of course, It was originally conceived of to take over the training of WKPP divers for cave or deep ocean.

The issue to me is the suggestion that it is "progress" that divers should expect or desire. In fact, this would not be "progress" to 90% or more of the world's divers. They don't want it, don't care about it, and would rather practice getting good at things they want to do, than practice for tech or cave--when they absolutely have no interest in it. Again, AJ I am not disagreeing with you--it is the GUE Concept of what all divers should become.

I think classes like Fundies could help the big 90% or more of the world's divers--this is an important market they are "blowing" by the ludicrous suggestion that most of these people should buy doubles and tech gear--ever.


We should have a DIR understanding class for recreational divers....and better than just DIR, because GUE has some amazing instructors.

So for Eric, this should be something that JJ or others involved in policy should step back and take a look at....Does GUE really want a larger slice of the world's divers, to make them better with Fundies or the Primer class ( with the expectation that this is it--that the masses will not want any further training by GUE, but will be better forever because of it) ..This would be a better direction for GUE to take, in my opinion.
The alternative, is to make it clear that Fundies and GUE is really about tech or cave, and GUE does not give a rat's a*s about helping recreational divers be better recreational divers....and this IS what Eric is offering.......it was what George and Bill and I wanted for DIR and recreational divers--for us, it was not about how many WKPP divers we could create with our DIR videos or internet posts , or in person DIR demos.

Dan,

I believe they are trying to appeal to recreational divers. GUE Primers, Fundies Rec Pass, and the OW Rec 1/2 classes prove that IMO.

---------- Post added November 2nd, 2013 at 05:56 PM ----------

Instead of asking for acceptance from anyone, what about just saying your plate is Hogarthian, and ready for most any type of single tank diving, and the Freedom Plate is far more comfortable than any other plate, try one for yourself and see. If you don't like it, send it back for a full refund. As you said for many it is not about the cost of the item.

Heck send TsandM one to play with. She will give you 100% honest feedback, good or bad. After all she was eying my plate at Gerstle one day. I should have let them try it out, but didn't think about it until later. Doh!

Great Idea! With the apparent disdain of GUE by a lot of members here, do you really want GUE approval? LOL.

Of course, you could always send one to me and I could take it to EE and for some dives at "GUE Night" to see what the folks think of it!

 

[Brewone0to]

BVickery,
You had asked a question in your post.
" How many fatalities are the cause of diver error? "
To answer your question as best I can.
Nearly all diving fatalities are directly related to diver error.
Sad but true, that's just how it is.....

 

[fnfalman]

I can see myself in a Freedom Plate rigged with neon orange webbing and neon yellow wing.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

One place I sharply disagree with GUE is this notion of gear that will allow a diver to progress into tech or cave. PfcAJ is absolutely right that this IS a big deal to GUE....and of course, It was originally conceived of to take over the training of WKPP divers for cave or deep ocean.

The issue to me is the suggestion that it is "progress" that divers should expect or desire. In fact, this would not be "progress" to 90% or more of the world's divers. They don't want it, don't care about it, and would rather practice getting good at things they want to do, than practice for tech or cave--when they absolutely have no interest in it. Again, AJ I am not disagreeing with you--it is the GUE Concept of what all divers should become.

I think classes like Fundies could help the big 90% or more of the world's divers--this is an important market they are "blowing" by the ludicrous suggestion that most of these people should buy doubles and tech gear--ever.


We should have a DIR understanding class for recreational divers....and better than just DIR, because GUE has some amazing instructors.

So for Eric, this should be something that JJ or others involved in policy should step back and take a look at....Does GUE really want a larger slice of the world's divers, to make them better with Fundies or the Primer class ( with the expectation that this is it--that the masses will not want any further training by GUE, but will be better forever because of it) ..This would be a better direction for GUE to take, in my opinion.
The alternative, is to make it clear that Fundies and GUE is really about tech or cave, and GUE does not give a rat's a*s about helping recreational divers be better recreational divers....and this IS what Eric is offering.......it was what George and Bill and I wanted for DIR and recreational divers--for us, it was not about how many WKPP divers we could create with our DIR videos or internet posts , or in person DIR demos.

I think they should care more about the 90% of recreational divers.
These are the people that could benefit the most, and a very large market to tap.
I've done some deductions based on single tank wing sales, and it is my opinion that over 90% of BP/W users use them with single tanks.
And I'm willing to bet that there are more non GUE trained divers using BP/W's in the whole population of BP/W usage.

Where I have a tough time sometimes is either with the hardcore GUE type divers who are set with what they have, and with freshly minted open water divers who don't know anything and don't know what they want.
Most of my sales are to old schoolers or to divers that use or have used BP/W for doubles but now use singles more, then they see mine and know that it'll work better for what they do. But they have experience to know what they're looking at.

If someone was to do a purely recreational program using DIR principles of learning to hover, no silting, no crashing the bottom, no overweighting, not planting students on their knees, etc. and without the push to turn them into tech or cave divers. This would be the best thing to happen to scuba in a long time.
It seems like the people who need it the most aren't getting it, PADI's getting them.

So I ask this:
What in your opinion is the biggest problem you see in recreational scuba today?
Is it gear choices or training choices? or both.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have a bottle of Captain Morgan Black double charred spiced rum calling my name.

 

[JamesK]

So I ask this:
What in your opinion is the biggest problem you see in recreational scuba today?
Is it gear choices or training choices? or both.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have a bottle of Captain Morgan Black double charred spiced rum calling my name.

That's easy. Training. A diver with good training can make sub-optimal gear work. A diver with poor training can make a hot buttered microwaved dog crap mess out of even the best gear.


Now, I will only ask this once, can you send me that Captain Morgan when you send me a plate?! LOL!!!!!!

 

[tracydr]

Eric, I think you keep missing many of us saying there are lots of possibilities for gear choices, and especially colors. For instance there is no rule of everything must be black. That is a made up internet lore like so many others. In fact TsandM wears bright yellow fins, that are easily seen underwater. You have seen my orange drysuit, and I know many others that dive red and blue drysuits. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Brand choice is just that, a choice. No one has ever come to me and said hey you should be diving this brand of fins, or that brand of reg. They have to function in the environment being dove, and not create any issues, but that is about it. You are not going to see a GUE person diving with a big honking knife on the OUTSIDE of their leg, but I don't expect you to wear one there either, as it is a safety issue.

Adeline's gear is fully GUE compliant, and is a complete hodge podge of equipment. As you know she also dives one of your plates, set up the exact same way you set them up. Same goes for my friend Gorkem, but you weren't selling plates at the time so he wound up with a HOG BP/W, and at some point he probably will upgrade to one of your plates...

Instead of asking for acceptance from anyone, what about just saying your plate is Hogarthian, and ready for most any type of single tank diving, and the Freedom Plate is far more comfortable than any other plate, try one for yourself and see. If you don't like it, send it back for a full refund. As you said for many it is not about the cost of the item.

Heck send TsandM one to play with. She will give you 100% honest feedback, good or bad. After all she was eying my plate at Gerstle one day. I should have let them try it out, but didn't think about it until later. Doh!

I highly recommend that you make brightly colored options of Freedom plate. If you could combine that with, or even better, custom colored harness and wing, that would be the bomb. Especially if it comes in pink,purple and lavender,please! Imagine being able to match your BP/wing/harness to your drysuit?

 

[TSandM]

Eric, I wish you wouldn't say things like, "It looks funny," because the anger comes through, and this is not something to get angry about. You are missing a point.

One of the things that makes me the most unhappy about diving is how poorly people are training, and how much their enjoyment of the underwater world is diminished by poor diving skills. My personal belief is that adopting the GUE approach to diving, with streamlined, standardized equipment, standardized procedures, good communication, and a strong emphasis on personal diving skills, would improve diving for a GREAT many people who will never dive a set of doubles or go in a cave or a wreck. I'd love to spread this kind of diving throughout the world of simple sport diving. That's MY mission.

It is NOT GUE's mission, and no matter how much either you or I would like it to be, it isn't. GUE was founded to create project divers. To this day, the heaviest emphasis in the organization is on their technical divisions. As the system was reverse engineered all the way back to OW, it was done with a sharp focus on the end game -- the fully trained project diver. To that end, gear that will go from OW to Cave 2 is what's wanted.

So there is a whole setup of gear that is recommended and taught. It doesn't mean that no other gear is acceptable or works; for example, Tobin George totally agrees with you, and his stainless backplate is optimized for single tank diving, with a shallow bend that can cause problems with short bolts on doubles. Tobin isn't worried about it, because 95% of the plates he sells aren't USED with doubles. GUE doesn't RECOMMEND Tobin's plates, but they don't forbid them. However, if a GUE instructor catches you trying desperately to make the plate fit on a set of doubles where it doesn't, he's probably going to raise an eyebrow and chuckle a bit.

Over the years, I've seen threads about how GUE should allow smokers, because after all, smokers want to be DIR; I've seen threads about why a backplate, because you can dive in good trim and use a long hose with other equipment. Everybody misses the point. This is a SYSTEM, and it's taught as a SYSTEM because being a system leads to the goal in mind, which is an easy progression from basic recreational diving to . . . wherever. Any time you don't understand why the organization is doing something, stand back and look at it through that filter, and it will almost always become clear. Your goal and my goal are not their goal.

 

[ams511]

Eric, I need to agree with the TSandM on this one. It is not GUE's mission to revamp diving education. If a person wants quality diving education they can get it. I am sure many of the instructors would teach a course like you mention but you need to want it and pay for it.

 

[danvolker]

I think they should care more about the 90% of recreational divers.
These are the people that could benefit the most, and a very large market to tap.
I've done some deductions based on single tank wing sales, and it is my opinion that over 90% of BP/W users use them with single tanks.
And I'm willing to bet that there are more non GUE trained divers using BP/W's in the whole population of BP/W usage.

Where I have a tough time sometimes is either with the hardcore GUE type divers who are set with what they have, and with freshly minted open water divers who don't know anything and don't know what they want.
Most of my sales are to old schoolers or to divers that use or have used BP/W for doubles but now use singles more, then they see mine and know that it'll work better for what they do. But they have experience to know what they're looking at.

If someone was to do a purely recreational program using DIR principles of learning to hover, no silting, no crashing the bottom, no overweighting, not planting students on their knees, etc. and without the push to turn them into tech or cave divers. This would be the best thing to happen to scuba in a long time.
It seems like the people who need it the most aren't getting it, PADI's getting them.

So I ask this:
What in your opinion is the biggest problem you see in recreational scuba today?
Is it gear choices or training choices? or both.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have a bottle of Captain Morgan Black double charred spiced rum calling my name.

I think the biggest problem in diving today is bad modular training...A "typical" person that just got their OW Cert, does not have the requisite understanding of buoyancy and trim to have a c card. Sure there are the 5% of great instructors out there, that manage to succeed in the time allotted for the class, but the typical diver in this group has far too much weight on, far too much air in the BC ( to compensate for the weight), the head up and feet down posture of overweighting, and if that is not bad enough, most instructors DO NOT have good kick shape understandings themselves, and are very bad at helping new divers get any sense of how to kick their fins. This is why we have the proliferation of Split fins--because it takes no real knowledge or learned coordination to use them....and this fits into the Agency model.

As a diver gains the needed skills from a better instructor ( or one allowed to teach what is really needed in an advanced class) , the poor gear choices begin to show themselves, and of course, this is where the differences in a bp/w and the sloppy stab jacket style blown up porcupine fish BC differences begin to become apparent to many divers. And this will be where your Freedom plate should be allowed to shine.
It is also where a small number of divers will look to fins and physics and optimizing propulsion, but for some reason unknown to me, divers just don't care much about having the most efficient fins.


On the whole issue of the holistic system, and the insistence that a GUE diver must use a piece of gear that works for everything--that is GUE/DIR recommended....what has been discussed already----much of this comes from the huge problems the WKPP faced in the early and mid-90's...... There were so many early tech divers, and cave divers, that proclaimed their gear choices based on "Personal Preference"...This became a battle ground on rec.scuba as well as on the Cavers and /Tech lists...these were the Flame Wars that have been whispered about on SB, and Net Doc and his team have labored long to protect ScubaBoarders from onslaghts such as this--from both sides!

Aside from the battle, the Personal preference divers had some individuals that probably would have been fine with their set ups in many conditions, but there was a much larger percentage that were surviving on recreational dives--because recreational dives are so easy to survive ( Newly minted OW divers at the BHB prove this deaily But when they got to 200 feet or more, buddies had no idea how to help buddies because they had no idea how their buddies gear worked---and buddies did not consider the needs of buddies--personal preference tied in strongly with self concern, and a rejection of concern for the needs of buddies.
Ultimately, as this battle raged, George Irvine (then Director of the WKPP), mandated there would be no personal preference gear choices--DIR would suggest what the right gear choices were, and anyone wishing to dive with the WKPP would follow this. With his proclamations on gear choices, and the training ideas and mentoring the WKPP used, they were able to run some of the biggest dives ever attempted, and gain world records in deep Cave, all with a Zero Death Record.

This was a much smaller gene pool than GUE is now playing with....There is a much greater need for systems when training 10,000 people, compared to training 50 people. And so we should expect that Personal Preference is going to be denied, with little conversation. They will not have time to have the DIRECTOR speak with each of 10,000 or 100,000 divers, to allow a slight deviation from the holistic system....

On the other hand, George and I were doing DIR Demos with the specific intent of changing recreational divers--recreational divers that would never have an interest in tech or cave. We wanted to give them better tools, more adventure, and for them to have this more safely because of better skills and tools( gear). I am certain, that if George was put on the spot today, as to " should a bunch of DIR minded recreational divers--that will NOT want tech or cave--consider the Freedom Plate... I think George would have said yes....for the same reason he would tell recreational divers back in the 90's that with a single tank, they could use a 5 foot long hose instead of the 7 foot hose we needed for doubles.

George and I would wear drysuits for 280 foot deep ocean dives( thermoclines could give you 80 degrees on the surface, and 55 degrees at 250 feet---but on our fun recreational dives to 90 or 100, we would both wear wet suits. Now I happen to know some GUE's that wear Dry suits all year long, even on shallow dives, because they are training for tech or cave, and the skills demand constant tweaking, and this IS PART OF their holistic system. They won't wear a wet suit.

In contrast today, if George dives with us, he will not go if the water is so cold that he has to wear a drysuit.....He will go if a wet suit is the right tool for the job. He just wants his diving to be pure fun, he has nothing to prove, and he is not interested in tech or cave these days. Just fun, without all the planning, logistics, and "work" of tech or cave diving. And this is why I say the Freedome Plate IS DIR ( though Eric you should make sure we can use the Halcyon 19 pound or 30 pound wings with it--afterall, Halcyon Wing owners are a big market for you that should LIKE your plate....and they can use their existing plate if they ever want to go with doubles....I have both a singles rig and a doubles rig--as do most tech divers that I know ! I would also say, that as you get more of the people that went with the original DIR gear company-- Halcyon, to accept the Freedome Plate....that you may become implicitly DIR for recreational--from this association



P.S.

Back in the very early pre-DIR days, when George and JJ and Casey and the others at the top of their exploration game, were trying to get more ideal gear from where NONE existed....Before Robert Carmichael created Halcyon from the design requests of the WKPP which were pleaded to Scubapro, Mares, and DiveRite ( all to no avail)....in the early days before this, there was no good way to carry doubles....the poodle jackets some stores sold were terrible, and there were plenty of cave divers stealing Stop signs and cutting them and slotting them, to use these as Backplates.
While the Halcyon plate was essential for the Halcyon Wings to attach to a diver, the real brilliance and bragging rights came from the wings.....Halcyon was the first to mass produce the plates, but I really don't think Robert Carmichael would feel this is the same kind of a core invention as the wing and harness system....which is to say that I don't think it would upset his world to see Halcyon wings and harnesses being sold with Freedom Plates. I think it would expand his market, and that it would give Halcyon a better opportunity with the recreational market we are discussing! And I will tell him this next chance I get

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think the biggest problem in diving today is bad modular training...A "typical" person that just got their OW Cert, does not have the requisite understanding of buoyancy and trim to have a c card. Sure there are the 5% of great instructors out there, that manage to succeed in the time allotted for the class, but the typical diver in this group has far too much weight on, far too much air in the BC ( to compensate for the weight), the head up and feet down posture of overweighting, and if that is not bad enough, most instructors DO NOT have good kick shape understandings themselves, and are very bad at helping new divers get any sense of how to kick their fins. This is why we have the proliferation of Split fins--because it takes no real knowledge or learned coordination to use them....and this fits into the Agency model.

As a diver gains the needed skills from a better instructor ( or one allowed to teach what is really needed in an advanced class) , the poor gear choices begin to show themselves, and of course, this is where the differences in a bp/w and the sloppy stab jacket style blown up porcupine fish BC differences begin to become apparent to many divers. And this will be where your Freedom plate should be allowed to shine.
It is also where a small number of divers will look to fins and physics and optimizing propulsion, but for some reason unknown to me, divers just don't care much about having the most efficient fins.


On the whole issue of the holistic system, and the insistence that a GUE diver must use a piece of gear that works for everything--that is GUE/DIR recommended....what has been discussed already----much of this comes from the huge problems the WKPP faced in the early and mid-90's...... There were so many early tech divers, and cave divers, that proclaimed their gear choices based on "Personal Preference"...This became a battle ground on rec.scuba as well as on the Cavers and /Tech lists...these were the Flame Wars that have been whispered about on SB, and Net Doc and his team have labored long to protect ScubaBoarders from onslaghts such as this--from both sides!

Aside from the battle, the Personal preference divers had some individuals that probably would have been fine with their set ups in many conditions, but there was a much larger percentage that were surviving on recreational dives--because recreational divers are so easy to survive ( Newly minted OW divers at the BHB prove this deaily But when they got to 200 feet or more, buddies had no idea how to help buddies because they had no idea how their buddies gear worked---and buddies did not consider the needs of buddies--personal preference tied in strongly with self concern, and a rejection of concern for the needs of buddies.
Ultimately, as this battle raged, George Irvine (then Director of the WKPP), mandated there would be no personal preference gear choices--DIR would suggest what the right gear choices were, and anyone wishing to dive with the WKPP would follow this. With his proclamations on gear choices, and the training ideas and mentoring the WKPP used, they were able to run some of the biggest dives ever attempted, and gain world records in deep Cave, all with a Zero Death Record.

This was a much smaller gene pool than GUE is now playing with....There is a much greater need for systems when training 10,000 people, compared to training 50 people. And so we should expect that Personal Preference is going to be denied, with little conversation. They will not have time to have the DIRECTOR speak with each of 10,000 or 100,000 divers, to allow a slight deviation from the holistic system....

On the other hand, George and I were doing DIR Demos with the specific intent of changing recreational divers--recreational divers that would never have an interest in tech or cave. We wanted to give them better tools, more adventure, and for them to have this more safely because of better skills and tools( gear). I am certain, that if George was put on the spot today, as to " should a bunch of DIR minded recreational divers--that will NOT want tech or cave--consider the Freedom Plate... I think George would have said yes....for the same reason he would tell recreational divers back in the 90's that with a single tank, they could use a 5 foot long hose instead of the 7 foot hose we needed for doubles.

George and I would wear drysuits for 280 foot deep ocean dives( thermoclines could give you 80 degrees on the surface, and 55 degrees at 250 feet---but on our fun recreational dives to 90 or 100, we would both wear wet suits. Now I happen to know some GUE's that wear Dry suits all year long, even on shallow dives, because they are training for tech or cave, and the skills demand constant tweaking, and this IS PART OF their holistic system. They won't wear a wet suit.

In contrast today, if George dives with us, he will not go if the water is so cold that he has to wear a drysuit.....He will go if a wet suit is the right tool for the job. He just wants his diving to be pure fun, he has nothing to prove, and he is not interested in tech or cave these days. Just fun, without all the planning, logistics, and "work" of tech or cave diving. And this is why I say the Freedome Plate IS DIR ( though Eric you should make sure we can use the Halcyon 19 pound or 30 pound wings with it--afterall, Halcyon Wing owners are a big market for you that should LIKE your plate....and they can use their existing plate if they ever want to go with doubles....I have both a singles rig and a doubles rig--as do most tech divers that I know ! I would also say, that as you get more of the people that went with the original DIR gear company-- Halcyon, to accept the Freedome Plate....that you may become implicitly DIR for recreational--from this association



P.S.

Back in the very early pre-DIR days, when George and JJ and Casey and the others at the top of their exploration game, were trying to get more idea gear from where NONE existed....Before Robert Carmichael created Halcyon from the design requests of the WKPP which were pleaded to Scubapro, Mares, and DiveRite ( all to no avail)....in the early days before this, there was no good way to carry doubles....the poodle jackets some stores sold were terrible, and there were plenty of cave divers stealing Stop signs and cutting them and slotting them, to use these as Backplates.
While the Halcyon plate was essential for the Halcyon Wings to attach to a diver, the real brilliance and bragging rights came from the wings.....Halcyon was the first to mass produce the plates, buyt I really don't think Robert Carmichael would feel this is the same kind of a core invention as the wing and harness system....which is to say that I don't think it would upset his world to see Halcyon wings and harnesses being sold with Freedom Plates. I think it would expand his market, and that it would give Halcyon a better opportunity with the recreational market we are discussing! And I will tell him this next chance I get

I'm working on a STA right at the moment so people can use wings with no slots.
The plate will be available the way it is now with welded on rails or plain with a STA.
I prefer the simplicity of a single piece design myself, but see the need for a STA because I know there are slottless wings out there.
The STA design may add 1/2" or possibly more metal that will keep the tank away from the body a little more, but it will still be way better that some other plates are these days just because the way the Freedom Plate is cut it allows the plate to sink into the valley between your shoulder blades so nicely like no other plate can. And now with the new Contour shape it gives it an even further measure of comfort.
I think George would be thrilled to use one, if you're saying he only likes to do fun wetsuit recreational dives now. That's Great! he went full circle.
Most people I know who get so deeply into tech when it finally runs it course they just quit diving all together. I've seen this a lot, it's like they can't allow themselves to go back.

I was mistaken about GUE then from what I'm learning now. I thought they did have an open water course.
I didn't fully understand thet they are a project minded tech agency only.
I remember years ago MHK and a few of his buddies were hanging out on a purely recreational board in Socal (diver.net) and was thrashing on everyone for everything. These people on that board were just weekend Catalina looky loo's and charter boat fun divers. I got thrashed on along with others, some of them so bad that they either quit the board or quit diving all together. There were even some threatened law suits over some of what was said. I don't know to this day if he was a rouge or was supported by the leadership in FL.
Anyway, I thought MHK once mentioned that GUE ws indeed starting their version of an OW course, but I guess I was wrong.

So now I see a huge hole in diving.
You have PADI with their training, then you have GUE with their top notch tech goal training, and a huge vast no mans land in between.