Non-certified diver fatality - Arkansas

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I am usually asked to provide proof of certification to rent, to dive, and to get an air fill. Not when I want to buy. My spouse works in a dive shop. They ask for proof of certification for rentals and air fills (and to join in on shop-organized dives). Obviously they have some of this proof on file already if they have themselves certified the divers and they don't require the same diver to repeatedly show his certification. However, they do not have a policy to ask for c-cards for buying equipment. This is in part because people often buy equipment for others as gifts, and because it is both a small shop and the only dive shop in the city - they do know their customers and usually the people buying gifts for their customers well. The reality is also that people can go online and buy without showing c-cards, or yes, buy on ebay, kijiji, etc. Further, as someone in the legal field myself, the liability that can attach to a shop for renting gear versus selling gear can also be drastically different.

Personally, I feel quite alright with being asked for proof of certification, and would never feel comfortable owning a shop myself and not asking for it but I can see why some shops would opt out of it due to convenience without necessarily understanding the legal risks they may be taking. My spouse recently got a lot of pushback from a new customer who came in to rent gear without his c-card. He had called ahead (from near his home about an hour away) and had been told by another employee he needed to bring his c-card. Rather then turning back while he was still close to home and taking an extra few minutes to grab his c-card, he came in without it and was ticked my spouse refused to rent him gear without the c-card. At some point he revealed he had been certified many years ago but does not really dive. Anyway, while the shop can usually check certification through their own records or the agency, if it was too many years ago they might not be able to as was the case here (and this can vary with the agency). No one at the shop could remember this guy from 20 years ago since he obviously was not very active in the local dive community. He pleaded, became argumentative, and so on. Too bad, my spouse was not going to do it. The guy then drove all the way home and came back (with his c-card) and rented a tank and regulator. When he returned the gear, it was also pretty clear he had not treated it properly and it now requires overhauling. It is suspected he needed to get into his dugout on the farm and just plunked the tank in place in the mud in the bottom and breathed off of it. He is now on the "do not rent to" list. Point here being is that there are many shops that would have rented the gear and not potentially lost the customer by making him drive another 2 hours to pick up his c-card. Many shops, or specifically employees, might not want to deal with a customer pushing back on the issue and just decide to "risk it". Personally, a customer who does not see why there is a need to check certification is not one I would care to have anyway. It is not just for the shop's benefit that certification is checked.

Obviously even with a c-card there is no guarantee the renter will be competent or be using the equipment in a safe (or appropriate) way. However, at least the shop can assure themselves that the person has been trained at some point and do their best to shift liability in the event something did go wrong (like if the guy had ran out of air in his dugout).
 
I recently purchase two steel 100 cft tanks from an online dealer without proof of certification. I took these two tanks and my 19cft on vacation with me to Florida for diving. All three tanks required visuals prior to filling. I was ask to show my Nitrox card for the fills. I dove thirteen separate times with this dive operation over a two week period. They all knew me by name after only a few days. Each day, I was required to show my dive card and the operation noted the certification agency, my C-card number, and my sign liabilty wavier. I have no problem with the online retailer or the dive operations requirements.

I do agree with Ken, if I was an owner of a dive shop, no way would I fill or provide a dive trip to someone without a C-card. I would, however, sell equipment to anyone.

Ken is also correct, no one on a jury will have any knowledge of diving and are our fate will be in the hands of the uninformed......
 
I dove thirteen separate times with this dive operation over a two week period. They all knew me by name after only a few days. Each day, I was required to show my dive card and the operation noted the certification agency, my C-card number, and my sign liabilty wavier.

I guess I have higher expectations for operators. Unless it was a different employee or it was a boat with 20+ people each day, I would expect an operation to remember me after showing my C-card the first two or three times within a few days.
 
However, they do not have a policy to ask for c-cards for buying equipment.

And just to be clear, I'm taking about proof of certification (or being in a class to get certified - same standard as I quoted from the PADI Retail Association) for only 4 types of gear, all considered life-support: regs & octos, gauge & computers, BCs (but not snorkelling vests), and tanks. Anything else is fair game.

Now I will freely admit that there's a school of thought that has develoepd amongst dive shops (not sure if the dive lawyers are comfortable with this) that since you can't go diving without air, it's OK to sell anything to anyone without checking a card because they're going to have to show a card to get air. Of course, some of you have blown that theory out of the water by letting us know that you've gotten airfills from places that didn't know you without dshowing a card.

The other school of thought, to which I subscribe, is tha you ask for the card for those four gear cataegories as that adds in one more layer of protection for you should something go wrong and you can tagged for a suit. Again, look at it this way: Would you rather be on the witness stand in a wrongful death suit where uyour operation is the defendant and say "We didn't feel we needed to ask if they were certified" or you would rather be able to say "They showed us their card so we did our due diligence."

I'm also a bit amazed by the posts here from people who either work at or own stores who are essentially saying, "We don't check the cards because we want the sale and if something goes wrong, we're confident the jury will be reasonable." I truly hope that way of thinking doesn't come back to haunt anyone because I personally feel it's simply not based on a realistic assesment of our litigious society and our sometimes-less-than-reasonable juries.

- Ken
 
And just to be clear, I'm taking about proof of certification (or being in a class to get certified - same standard as I quoted from the PADI Retail Association) for only 4 types of gear, all considered life-support: regs & octos, gauge & computers, BCs (but not snorkelling vests), and tanks. Anything else is fair game.

Now I will freely admit that there's a school of thought that has develoepd amongst dive shops (not sure if the dive lawyers are comfortable with this) that since you can't go diving without air, it's OK to sell anything to anyone without checking a card because they're going to have to show a card to get air. Of course, some of you have blown that theory out of the water by letting us know that you've gotten airfills from places that didn't know you without dshowing a card.

The other school of thought, to which I subscribe, is tha you ask for the card for those four gear cataegories as that adds in one more layer of protection for you should something go wrong and you can tagged for a suit. Again, look at it this way: Would you rather be on the witness stand in a wrongful death suit where uyour operation is the defendant and say "We didn't feel we needed to ask if they were certified" or you would rather be able to say "They showed us their card so we did our due diligence."

I'm also a bit amazed by the posts here from people who either work at or own stores who are essentially saying, "We don't check the cards because we want the sale and if something goes wrong, we're confident the jury will be reasonable." I truly hope that way of thinking doesn't come back to haunt anyone because I personally feel it's simply not based on a realistic assesment of our litigious society and our sometimes-less-than-reasonable juries.

- Ken

These are the PADI standards you provided earlier:


From the PADI Retail Association Membership Standards, all members must:
(Page 8, point 16 under equipment dsales & service) "Agree to sell, rent or provide compressed air for scuba purposes only to certified divers and student divers in training under a professional scuba instructor, unless prohibited by local law."
(Page 8, point 17 regarding recreational scuba diving activities) "Require proof of recreational scuba certification by all divers participating in in noninstructional recreational scuba dives."

They do not restrict gear sales in any way. They do not restrict the sale of compressed air for paintball purposes.

They do restrict the sale of compressed air for scuba purposes. They do restrict participation in recreational scuba diving. (my words - under the control of the retailer).

You seem to be trying to deceive/scare other retailers into your C-card requirement policies. I'm sure it would not take too many documented lost court cases to make your point. Just think, you could put Leisurepro and the like out of business. With all their online sales, they must have been dragged into court on multiple occasions - no?

Do you think a C-card is required to buy a compressor - other than perhaps from your shop?
 
Anyone can buy a car without licence but you need one to drive it away.
PADI has no jurisdiction on all scuba rental and retail businesses.
I was never asked to show my C-card when shopping scuba equipment on line!! I am pretty sure anyone can buy a compressor and whatnot and go scuba diving without any certification and training. Is there any law in USA stipulated that only trained diver can scuba dive? Certainly not in Hong Kong as we never set standard here.
 
I dive at the local quarry. Almost every Saturday. Every time I dive I fill out a waiver and show my card. The gentleman who runs the quarry OP asks for it and I am happy to show it. Bottom line i think the message from Ken is clear. Unless you have been in a courtroom on the stand with your integrity being questioned and your future at stake, or watched others in that predicament, you would not undestand what it's like. Do not underestimate what a "good" lawyer with enoguth monetary incentive can do in court. If I owned a dive shop or boat I would ask for cert in all instances. Better to lose some customers then endanger the whole business/operation and someone's life in the process. Just me 2 cents.
G
 
Please remember that all of the above applies only to diving and purchasing gear and fills in the USA. In other countries things operate quite differently. The word "liability" which seems to drive so much of what happens in the USA simply doesn't apply in many other places. Even in Britain which is a very safety-conscious country "civil liability" has little significance. Criminal liability has a great deal of significance.
 
I dive at the local quarry. Almost every Saturday. Every time I dive I fill out a waiver and show my card. The gentleman who runs the quarry OP asks for it and I am happy to show it. Bottom line i think the message from Ken is clear. Unless you have been in a courtroom on the stand with your integrity being questioned and your future at stake, or watched others in that predicament, you would not undestand what it's like. Do not underestimate what a "good" lawyer with enoguth monetary incentive can do in court. If I owned a dive shop or boat I would ask for cert in all instances. Better to lose some customers then endanger the whole business/operation and someone's life in the process. Just me 2 cents.
G

Bottom line is, if you're in the habit of asking for more than is required industry wide, you will always be held to that higher standard. If you cannot produce a record of every instance that you enforced your higher standard, you provide evidence against yourself that you don't always enforce your own standards, and you become liable for anybody who was harmed by your failure to comply with your own high standards.

In effect, you are incurring self-imposed liability, plus documentation burden (costs), that your competitors do not have. It's a narrow margin business as it is. Now you want to increase your burden beyond that deemed reasonable by the industry? How long would you expect that business model to work?
 

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