How those idiots (us) run out of air

[idive2]

Each diver has to decide how ready they are for a particular type of diving. It is a fact that on most drift dives
some are not completely ready to dive alone if it happens. The ones I worry about are the ones that are not even
close to being self reliant. There is a big difference between a drift dive in Jupiter and a moored, shallow reef,
anchored dive in Key Largo. I think it's tough for newer divers to know exactly where they fit in in terms of where
they should and should not be diving.

 

[danvolker]

Each diver has to decide how ready they are for a particular type of diving. It is a fact that on most drift dives
some are not completely ready to dive alone if it happens. The ones I worry about are the ones that are not even
close to being self reliant. There is a big difference between a drift dive in Jupiter and a moored, shallow reef,
anchored dive in Key Largo. I think it's tough for newer divers to know exactly where they fit in in terms of where
they should and should not be diving.

True!!
It blurs though if you take a new student or new diver to the very mild and shallow drifts of Boynton Beach, or even the Southern Palm Beach reefs like Breakers or Pauls Reef.... On a reef like Breakers, the drift is insignificant compared to the drift environment of Jupiter....and the new diver gets to float up or down over water that is really not a current to experience...they get to see more reef, and at dive end, the boat has come to them--they don't have to find the boat ( which is a huge plus).

This is the Southern Palm Beach area....nothing like the big adventure dives of Jupiter....but beautiful and at least to me, superior to the Keys and still water for a new diver....(superior in my mind ...easier on the new divers to have the boat always coming to them, and each dive the new diver gets to cover two times the distance along new reef, because they don't have to turn and run a reciprocal course--and see again what they already saw...pretty dumb, really!!!.And, the divers get in the habit of doing the "blue water ascents" and of them being easy and natural)
[video=youtube_share;lW1h8PschFI]http://youtu.be/lW1h8PschFI[/video]

 

[Adobo]

If we had ascended when I first had the thought "I don't have enough gas for this" we would have had enough gas to get to the surface safely. I don't think we would have panicked but who knows. We probably would have been able to execute a slow ascent -- obviously we need to learn and practice that. We are able to hold a given depth (even 5') pretty well, so I think it's mostly a question of gaining confidence.

If that means we were not qualified to do the dive, I'd wager that a fair portion of divers we have dived with on this trip are similarly situated. Most people I have talked to do have never shot a bag at depth -- if they even have one. Even those with 100's of dives. Many of them dive only on on vacation. They do free ascents, e.g. drift dives, without a bag and we'll try that.

We have made a conscious choice, initially driven by Emily, to dive continuously throughout the year, to keep up our skills and to develop them. We make mistakes but we're enjoying the process. Thanks for your help.

On to Bonaire!

Bill

Ability to deploy an SMB is not what makes you qualified or not to execute some of these dives. You are ability to plan and conduct these dives safely (without assistance from anyone outside of your team) is what makes you qualified for these dives. What constitutes "ability to plan and conduct" dives will vary depending on who you ask. Some people evaluate based on the dive going smoothly with no issues. I evaluate my ability to execute the dive based on whether or not I can extricate my buddy and I from the dive should one not-uncommon emergency take place. At home, *all* the people I dive with are similarly trained and prepared.

Whether or not everyone on the boat uses the same litmus test as I do to evaluate their ability or preparedness to conduct the upcoming dive is not important to me. Because in the end, my objective for the dive is to get my buddy and myself back on the boat safe and sound. Everyone else is responsible for their own dives.

Put it a different way... I've never seen any dive team conduct an extensive "head to toe" on any of the dive boats I've been on in Hawaii. (To be fair, I am not around everyone throughout pre-dive.) Just because no one else seems to feels it necessary to do "head to toe" to prepare themselves for a dive doesn't mean I should feel it to be unnecessary also.

 

[Tortuga68]

Washing machines at 60'. down-currents and the like are conditions that the OP should never experience. I will correct myself to say: "Your bubbles (in 99.99% of the sites you will probably ever dive as a beginner) go up; follow them

As a regular diver in the Philippines, I was specifically thinking about Canyons in Puerto Galera, which should be an Advanced site but in reality is the 'must do' site for anyone visiting that area & as a result a lot of OW divers do it (regardless of whether they should or not). Depends on the current but it's quite common to blow off the site at the end of the dive from around 25m and do a 'blue water' (no visual reference) ascent in which the 'washing machine' conditions you mention are pretty common, with bubbles going sideways, around and even down.

My point was that bubbles can be a good reference but not always.

You are being argumentative IMO as this thread is in the 'Basic Forum'. Being 'positive' on the surface is only a good thing for divers at this stage. The incident about the guy who lost his legs is an unfortunate accident- nothing more. Certainly it should not be an argument against getting positive on the surface!

It wasn't my intention to be argumetative, I thought Dan's post about how he surfaces was pretty relevant to areas with high boat traffic and the 'unfortunate accident' IMO could have been avoided if the diver in that case had used the technique Dan described. Instead he was postive and tried to avoid the boat while being on teh surface and as a result is now (I assume) in a wheelchair. Seems to me that helping someone avoid that is worth a little argument.

The fact that this thread is in the Basic forum shouldn't limit the discussion from covering 'best practice'.

Computers take a reading every 3 seconds or so. You are correct that it is possible to exceed a safe ascent rate (for 3 seconds) before the computer starts beeping at you. However most ascents will take more than 3 seconds.... Again I would ask: For a beginner forum, why nit-pick at the minutia?

Because in my experience it's pretty common to see OW divers not following a correct ascent rate; sometimes too fast (slow to monitor/react to their computer) but equally common too slow (especially in the conditions I described above, which again you could justifiably say those divers should not be in, but fact is they are every day). Once the computer is beeping most OW divers will take some time to process what that means & act upon it, and by that time they can be in uncontrolled ascent mode and I have certainly seen divers pop up to the surface or close to it before descending back down to do their 'safety stop' (or not in some cases).

My point being that many OW divers don't have the skill required to follow their PDC at a safe ascent rate in those conditions.

Again, Basic forum shouldn't limit discussion to basic skills

 

[beanojones]

Put it a different way... I've never seen any dive team conduct an extensive "head to toe" on any of the dive boats I've been on in Hawaii. (To be fair, I am not around everyone throughout pre-dive.) Just because no one else seems to feels it necessary to do "head to toe" to prepare themselves for a dive doesn't mean I should feel it to be unnecessary also.

Excellent observation.

One thing that it should at least make one wonder if there is an actual need to conduct an extensive "head to toe", beyond certain groups of people wanting to. Which is fine, but people wanting to do something, but hardly a reason why people who don't want to do the same thing ought to do be doing it.

It's clear that there are some people who like to tweak about dive planning, but then again there are some people who like to spend their afternoons hand washing their cars, and cleaning their alloy rims with a toothbrush. Those people also usually have a set of reasons/rationalizations for why they like cleaning their cars (or tweaking about dive planning), but isn't it enough to just say they like doing it and it does the car no harm?

In other words, there are plenty of easy ways to dive safely, that are simply not dependent on doing anything other than doing stuff in the water. Or as people who think about dive planning and gas planning as just tweaking about diving think, there are reasons to actually go diving and not waste time not diving in favor of doing 'head to toes'.

Diving has real risks, but we do not need ritual to reduce risks, we need appropriate action while diving.

 

[dlofting]

Diving has real risks, but we do not need ritual to reduce risks, we need appropriate action while diving.

If by "ritual" you mean planning, looking ahead, paying attention to detail and using checklists then I have to disagree with your statement....I inherently hate doing these things but recognize their value (in diving and in other high risk activities I do). On the other hand, if by ritual you mean mindless rote, then I appreciate your point.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Excellent observation.

One thing that it should at least make one wonder if there is an actual need to conduct an extensive "head to toe", beyond certain groups of people wanting to. Which is fine, but people wanting to do something, but hardly a reason why people who don't want to do the same thing ought to do be doing it.

It's clear that there are some people who like to tweak about dive planning, but then again there are some people who like to spend their afternoons hand washing their cars, and cleaning their alloy rims with a toothbrush. Those people also usually have a set of reasons/rationalizations for why they like cleaning their cars (or tweaking about dive planning), but isn't it enough to just say they like doing it and it does the car no harm?

In other words, there are plenty of easy ways to dive safely, that are simply not dependent on doing anything other than doing stuff in the water. Or as people who think about dive planning and gas planning as just tweaking about diving think, there are reasons to actually go diving and not waste time not diving in favor of doing 'head to toes'.

Diving has real risks, but we do not need ritual to reduce risks, we need appropriate action while diving.

Appropriate dive planning and buddy checks are not "ritual". They're an integral part of diving ... which is why they're part of every agency's OW curriculum. The reason so many people don't do them is because their "scuba instructor" taught them to be dependent on someone else to do those things for them ... which is how threads like this one come to be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Adobo]

In other words, there are plenty of easy ways to dive safely, that are simply not dependent on doing anything other than doing stuff in the water. Or as people who think about dive planning and gas planning as just tweaking about diving think, there are reasons to actually go diving and not waste time not diving in favor of doing 'head to toes'.

Diving has real risks, but we do not need ritual to reduce risks, we need appropriate action while diving.

Diving without having some forethought about gas planning to me seems a lot like getting directions where you are told to "take a left about a mile before you get to the church." You know, just divine any of the answers you need. Although, I think anyone who was semi-conscious while reading through any part of this thread would realize that this approach did not work out very well for the OP.

And as far as head to toe checks go, you are welcome to splash into the water as unaware of the status of your equipment as you like. As for me (and my dive buddy), I like to make sure that regulators work, that inflators work and are still attached to BCs, that masks are not leaking, that fins are attached securely, etc. before I splash into the water. But maybe one day I will be a dive pro like you and won't think that I need any of my equipment to be in proper working order in order to enjoy a dive.

 

[supergaijin]

Washing machines at 60'. down-currents and the like are conditions that the OP should never experience. I will correct myself to say: "Your bubbles (in 99.99% of the sites you will probably ever dive as a beginner) go up; follow them.

As a regular diver in the Philippines, I was specifically thinking about Canyons in Puerto Galera, which should be an Advanced site but in reality is the 'must do' site for anyone visiting that area & as a result a lot of OW divers do it (regardless of whether they should or not). Depends on the current but it's quite common to blow off the site at the end of the dive from around 25m and do a 'blue water' (no visual reference) ascent in which the 'washing machine' conditions you mention are pretty common, with bubbles going sideways, around and even down.

My point was that bubbles can be a good reference but not always.

You speak the truth- beginners are regularly dropped at dive sites that are potentially (but not always) beyond their skill levels. I have a real beef with operators who regularly do this kind of thing. Tourists will sign up for anything but the operators have the experience to make a informed decision. Sadly this is not the case for many areas. IMO for the benefit of the OP (and others who read this)- discussing the plethora of conditions that exist in the underwater world is not helpful when the diver is yet to understand very basic concepts of diving. Basic questions (such as those posed here) should be answered with basic replies IMO- especially on forums.

The fact that this thread is in the Basic forum shouldn't limit the discussion from covering 'best practice'.

I agree. I do however believe that threads like these which are started by beginners, should remain as specific as possible to avoid confusion. Too many divers die through not maintaining positive buoyancy at the surface. For the OP, I believe this point to be the most important. Boats are loud so a slow controlled ascent listening for boats is best practice IMO followed by postive buoyancy, inflating the SMB etc.

Argument is important on discussion forums- yours is just as valid as mine. I do see yours as counterproductive for this specific thread.

My point being that many OW divers don't have the skill required to follow their PDC at a safe ascent rate in those conditions.

The OP asked questions on practicing blue water ascents. Advice has been given on how to do this. I agree that many divers are not ready for all of the eventualities that might befall them underwater. Most are following the DM without realising that it. Computers do give information to the individual diver- only the individual can decide what to do with that information.

 

[Griffo]

B b v b


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