Article: Self Reliance and Tech Diving

[ElGaucho]

I am a firm believer in the team diving mentality. I believe in it, I like it, and I really don´t like diving alone (in all the different meanings of the word). I will teach the team mentality from day one. I will want the people I dive with to have that same mentality. I have never felt more at home than with mexican team cave divers, GUE divers, DIR divers, call them whatever you want. I don´t like macho types. I don´t think Chatterton is necessarily a macho type. But the phrasing he uses is recminiscent of the people who just read out of context. People like the ones who misread the DIR mentality.

Im happy diving with good, team aware, nice people that want to get out of the water with everyone alive and sharing an experience. I feel like I need to make a trip to PNW and dive with Lynn, Bob and the such. I just went to Hong Kong, and found myself at home at the GUE shop there. That´s just me. But that´s the education I have searched (and it´s NOT GUE koolaid, I only did fundies and got a provisional rec pass many years ago, but I have trained with GUE/DIR/TeamDiving minded people and instructors, and I am a TDI AN/DP Instructor). That´s the way I LIKE to dive. Diving in my mind should be a hobby, a nice way to spend time with friends, a way to explore and a way to share a passion. Macho bravados, can stay at the door.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Of course I wouldn't simply lay back and die. I'm also not doing dives from which a CESA isn't possible without analyzed tanks and/or redundant gas from a different compressor. I don't think that anyone is just going to willingly lay back and die. I'm saying that responsibility covers making sure you can take care of yourself without having to mug some other guy for gas.

Kristopher

The whole foundation of the OP was "Technical dives" c/w deco obligations, not recreational dives. Shooting for the surface is not an option that one can commit to without serious consideration of one's beliefs in the afterlife. I agree FIRMLY with the concept that a diver must be responsible for their own well being. And FTR, I am not doing any deco dives so this is just a layman's opinion. Where the whole scenario falls apart for me is where the OP will sit back and watch you die. There is an outright refusal to consider rendering assistance. Not even to determine if it can or cannot be done safely. NOTHING. It is his right to dive that way. I believe that. I just hope (and think it is likely the case) that his "same ocean" divers know that he will do whatever it takes to NOT render aid no matter what. I would still dive with him. I never go into any dive expecting anybody to be responsible for me other than myself. BUT, I sure as hell hope that if I ever **** up bad enough to need help, that I was not planning on having John Chatterton sign my log book for that particular dive .

The reality is, even the more skilled, competent and experienced divers **** up once in a while. I for one hope IF it ever happens to the OP, that he is on a dive with someone unlike himself in this dive attitude.

This is a rather enjoyable thread though....both actually.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Mr.
Chatterton,



I'll start be saying "Thank You" for bringing the joy of scuba to the
masses through television. I have watched quite a few episodes of Deep Sea Detectives
and can tell that you have a passion for discovery through scuba. I've also
trained with an agency or two that has been mentioned in the previous threads
and can respect their input on buddy diving. I've been a law enforcement
officer in one of the nation’s most violent cities for over a decade and have
extensive training that revolves around self-sufficiency and a partner who
would risk their life to save another’s.


These people who I've worked with are very much like the persons I would do a
serious technical dive with. They have shown another level of training beyond
the basics and have trained for worst case scenarios. They have practiced the art
of buddy diving till it becomes muscle memory when it counts the most. They are
the last persons I would expect to watch me die because of a failure,
regardless of fault. Most of the people I dive with share this passion and
don't wish to see others new to the sport make life threatening mistakes by
condoning a solo dive that can be done much more safely with a TRAINED buddy.


If you're making reference to diving the Andria Dora with an Insta Buddy with
no idea what training they have received in the past, forgive me. I would then
agree your odds are better on your own. If you’re making a general reference of
all tech divers across the board, then I'll tell you I've lost all respect for
you as a mentor to the scuba industry.



Dan

 

[boulderjohn]

In the scenario I posted, the toxing diver was trained to analyze his tanks, and the group with which he was diving adheres to that practice with missionary zeal. Yet, the mistake was still made. A year or two ago a similar error was made by an entire team of WKPP divers, resulting in the death of a highly experienced diver in what is often regarded as the most safety-conscious dive organization in the world.

As for analyzing any tank other than those containing air, that was the oft-preached mantra of Florida instructor last summer. His dive on the Hydro Atlantic (max 175') went bad when it turned out the "air" in his tanks was actually EANx 36.

I admire people who never make mistakes, but I have yet to meet one. I make mistakes myself, and it is interesting to know that there are divers who will not only refuse to help me when I do, they will pronounce my death as well-deserved.

 

[HowardE]

Mr.
Chatterton,



I'll start be saying "Thank You" for bringing the joy of scuba to the
masses through television. I have watched quite a few episodes of Deep Sea Detectives
and can tell that you have a passion for discovery through scuba. I've also
trained with an agency or two that has been mentioned in the previous threads
and can respect their input on buddy diving. I've been a law enforcement
officer in one of the nation’s most violent cities for over a decade and have
extensive training that revolves around self-sufficiency and a partner who
would risk their life to save another’s.


These people who I've worked with are very much like the persons I would do a
serious technical dive with. They have shown another level of training beyond
the basics and have trained for worst case scenarios. They have practiced the art
of buddy diving till it becomes muscle memory when it counts the most. They are
the last persons I would expect to watch me die because of a failure,
regardless of fault. Most of the people I dive with share this passion and
don't wish to see others new to the sport make life threatening mistakes by
condoning a solo dive that can be done much more safely with a TRAINED buddy.


If you're making reference to diving the Andria Dora with an Insta Buddy with
no idea what training they have received in the past, forgive me. I would then
agree your odds are better on your own. If you’re making a general reference of
all tech divers across the board, then I'll tell you I've lost all respect for
you as a mentor to the scuba industry.



Dan

We'll see you at Our World Underwater...

Look for John at the Aqua Lung or ScubaBoard booth...

 

[Chatterton]

Thank you for the nice comments, but seriously some you have either not read what I wrote, have comprehension issues, or just like to write misinformed, inane crap. This is exactly (one paragraph) what I wrote in my blog:

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"If I am on a deep open circuit wreck dive (where I am not instructing students) I am not even using a long hose on my bottom gas. I am willing to help any diver manage a problem, buddy or not, however supplying gas to another diver, especially on the bottom, is unnecessary and incredibly dangerous for both parties. My secondary regulator is there for me, not you! If you try to take it from me, I will fight you for it, and I will win. That is my plan. There is no reason in the world for a deep diver to need gas from me on the bottom, much less jump me. Breathe your own damn gas, any gas, even the wrong gas, and return to the surface as quickly and safely as possible. I will help you if I can, but is it fair for one diver to expect another to save him/her, as part of the plan?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Am I referencing "new divers"???? Is this some "dangerous" philosophy to be kept away from the masses? Is this "despicable"? Of course not, and anyone who says different either can't read, is just stupid, or has some other BS Internet Bully agenda. [/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I stand by my blog, not 100%, but 200%. If you are diving to 200 feet, I absolutely expect you to be able to plan your dive, manage your gas, and practice self rescue if necessary. Then I expect you to be capable of executing the freaking plan. I do not expect my diving with you to increase the risk of my dive, because you do not know what the hell you are doing! Silly me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]My message to new divers has never been, if you are in trouble," Adios muchacho!!!! You are on your own!!" My message is that, "You need to know what the hell you are doing before you go to 200 feet!!!" You need to be responsible for yourself, not using your buddy as a crutch. There is no fast track to 200 feet. You need to learn how to dive, and learn how to dive very, very well before you go below the recreational limits. You need to respect the deep, there are things you need to know, and you can't get that just from a certification agency, you need to earn it yourself, with experience, maturity, and bottom time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]When you start diving, you don't know anything, and you know it. When you learn a little, you think you know a lot, but you don't. When you actually learn something, it is that there is so very much you don't know. That is the time where you can think about diving deep.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Just because you have 100 dives and a card that says 200 feet, and some jackass instructor took your money and tells you if something goes wrong, go have your buddy fix it, does not make you a capable deep diver. Deep water is not for everyone, and it is definitely not for anyone who is dependent on another diver. The deep water is for experienced, dedicated, knowledgeable, determined, self-reliant divers, not novices with a crutch.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]That is what I think, and the way I dive.

Despicable me. [/FONT]

 

[danvolker]

Thank you for the nice comments, but seriously some you have either not read what I wrote, have comprehension issues, or just like to write misinformed, inane crap. This is exactly (one paragraph) what I wrote in my blog:

"If I am on a deep open circuit wreck dive (where I am not instructing students) I am not even using a long hose on my bottom gas. I am willing to help any diver manage a problem, buddy or not, however supplying gas to another diver, especially on the bottom, is unnecessary and incredibly dangerous for both parties. My secondary regulator is there for me, not you! If you try to take it from me, I will fight you for it, and I will win. That is my plan. There is no reason in the world for a deep diver to need gas from me on the bottom, much less jump me. Breathe your own damn gas, any gas, even the wrong gas, and return to the surface as quickly and safely as possible. I will help you if I can, but is it fair for one diver to expect another to save him/her, as part of the plan?"

Am I referencing "new divers"???? Is this some "dangerous" philosophy to be kept away from the masses? Is this "despicable"? Of course not, and anyone who says different either can't read, is just stupid, or has some other BS Internet Bully agenda.

.

So when the WKPP teams would do multi mile penetrations into Wakulla, there was never any need for them to be able to share gas at any point in the cave system? Wow! Imagine all the time they could have saved in having to load extra gas supplies, if only they had you there to direct them about the foolishness of sharing gas with buddies below 200 feet deep!!!
Imagine how you might have been able to improve on the safety records George Irvine created, by your having directed the end of this dangerous practice of sharing gas with buddies!!!

 

[nimoh]

however supplying gas to another diver, especially on the bottom, is unnecessary and incredibly dangerous for both parties.

I would offer that if someone is unable to share gas safely, even on the bottom, then they do not belong on that dive.

 

[sixt3denied]

In what way is it selfish to either dive without a buddy, and/or to set clear boundaries at the surface as to what assistance you will or will not provide on the bottom?

If we both have an hour+ deco obligation, our respective dive plans called for us to each carry our own deco gas/safety reserve but no more, and just before beginning the ascent you have a catastrophic failure that costs you your gas... how is it selfish for me to do the math in my head and tell you to follow your plan, rather than compromising my own? If you want to argue that it's irresponsible or morally wrong to set up such a dive plan in the first place (and I suspect you team divers would, given your gas planning approach), so be it. But nobody is having the rules of the dive sprung on them for the first time at the bottom.

Would I do everything I could within the boundaries of my reserves and plan to get you as far through deco and up the line as I could before sending you on your own way? So far as I could safely do so, of course I would. Would I insist you switch back to your own gas and take your chances once I calculated that the risk to my own safety was too great, and fight to protect myself if you were too selfish to follow your own plan? Yes, I would. I hadn't realized that DIR's philosophy included the tenet that two chamber riders/bodies were better than one.

Very well said Dr. Lecter! Thank You!

Having recently read the book "Shadow Divers" about Mr. Chatterton's experiences diving and identifying a lost German submarine, I completely understand Mr. Chatterton's view regarding how a buddy can become a liability at great depth, and on very risky dives. Most likely, very few divers on this forum have anything near Mr. Chatterton's experience. I equate some of the arguments / points of view by others on this thread to a novice or intermediate diver having an argument with the Jacques Cousteau of deep wreck diving. Unless you have "been there" and "done that" maybe its best to just listen to what Mr. Chatterton has to say, and take the pieces of advice that you like and add them to your diving memory bank, and ignore the pieces that you don't. Use the knowledge and wisdom of others more experienced than yourself to build on your own knowledge.

 

[nimoh]

Very well said Dr. Lecter! Thank You!

Having recently read the book "Shadow Divers" about Mr. Chatterton's experiences diving and identifying a lost German submarine, I completely understand Mr. Chatterton's view regarding how a buddy can become a liability at great depth, and on very risky dives. Most likely, very few divers on this forum have anything near Mr. Chatterton's experience. I equate some of the arguments / points of view by others on this thread to a novice or intermediate diver having an argument with the Jacques Cousteau of deep wreck diving. Unless you have "been there" and "done that" maybe its best to just listen to what Mr. Chatterton has to say, and take the pieces of advice that you like and add them to your diving memory bank, and ignore the pieces that you don't. Use the knowledge and wisdom of others more experienced than yourself to build on your own knowledge.

I think you may be misinformed about the experience level of some of the people involved in this discussion.