Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[Thalassamania]

Just a point of information: An ellipsis [ [SIZE=+2]…[/SIZE] ] proves to be a handy device when quoting material with some words omitted, and was used at the start and end of the quote.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I think you and I both know ellipses connote the removal of irrelevant verbage. Using them to excise material from a quote that directly addresses the argument one wants to make is pathetic. In any event, we've wandered substantially from the point of the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[watercooled81]

It's funny that I've just stumbled across this thread in an email of the month's "Top Threads". I guess it is begging a response from me. What makes people want to criticize divers, adventurers, thrill-seekers, or whatever they are, so badly? You can't possibly know what training and experience all divers have and it is not everyone's business to jump in and pass judgement, especially unsolicited. Just because something seems daring to you doesn't mean the people doing it didn't take precautions and didn't have experience that you may not see from the outside looking in. If they are willing to accept the risks and live life as they choose, they are most likely not seeking your infinite wisdom in keeping them from taking such risks. I'm sorry if I sound unappreciative of the advice, but I'm smack dab in the middle of dealing with people posting comments on something they know nothing about.

We maintain a website/blog at www.divingintocruising.comand we often publish videos on YouTube of our dives. We’ve received some flack recently over our “Diving Into Cruising – Paradise Springs” and "Diving Into Cruising - Manatee Springs" videos. Apparently some of the cave diving gurus out there think we’re somehow encouraging divers who lack experience to enter into caves without the right equipment or knowledge to do it safely. The videos we publish are simply to portray our own adventures and share them with friends and family and anyone else who cares to see it. Encouraging OW Divers to go beyond their limits....no, we aren't encouraging anything and anyone who simply watches a video and thinks “Yeah, I can do that!”, Well…best of luck to you. I would think that most people are smarter than that and realize this sport requires some guidance and training. That guidance can come in many forms and doesn't always have to be a "certification course" where you get your pretty picture on a card at the end. Getting the experience is much more important than getting the certification.

These “cave diving experts” who think we broke the code of conduct in diving are looking to see high tech lights, double tanks, and other equipment, that may be nice to have, but certainly isn’t required in order to dive these sites safely. It’s a shame that the diving industry has made this sport so equipment induced and convinced divers that there is a need for so many expensive pieces of equipment for which the purpose of could otherwise be accomplished by simply having the right knowledge and experience. We prefer more of a minimalistic approach to diving. As far as encouraging divers to ignore safety guidelines or extend beyond your level of training, we certainly hope it isn’t perceived that way. In obtaining certification as an OW Diver, you should already know that diving is an inherently risky sport and when you start venturing into cave or wreck diving, the risks grow greater. This is the same with any high risk sport. The grim reaper sign in most caverns/caves does warn open water divers of going any further and before we had the right introduction to cave diving, we never exceeded those limits, even though we had seen videos on YouTube of the exact same site. We had sense enough to know that the people we saw doing it probably had training that we didn’t. Hell, I’ve seen videos of people flying off bridges in squirrel suits, but does that mean I would strap one on and jump not knowing what I was doing…I don’t think so! Remember Darwin’s process of natural selection? “You can’t fix stupid!” But....if I had someone show me a thing or two and teach me about the dangers unknown, I might be up for it!:blinking:

When I read this, I was like "I can see their point" as like i pointed out, I do similar dives without "official training" then I watched the videos, and was in shock, and as pointed out by many comments following, the list of things done wrong seems to be endless.

This is where I think there are a few catergory of divers which are as followes:

Divers with Certification who also have the skills and knowledge and follow all the various safety proceedures.

Divers with no certification in cave diving, who have spent god knows how many hours researching, reading and practicing all the drills, and rehearsing what ifs. "where i see myself"

Divers with Certification, who dont really have the skills or knowledge and skip important steps. ie the viz is excellent so why lay a line.. Or its only a small cave so wont take any spare air.

Then last which I think is the main issue in this thread the divers who have a basic Certification OW for example who go exploring with no idea of what could happen and how to do it safely.

I still believe the individual has a lot more to play in how safe a dive is then what certification they have. Do they have a good eye for identifying all the risks, are they logical in taking steps to reduce or remove this risk. Do they know/remember the skills, do they keep them fresh by practicing them regularly! The number of divers who have gone through the various course, I am talking up to Dive Master or just shy of the technical route, who cant remember the last time they did a simple drill. My buddy and I got into trouble many many years ago, when a newly serviced reg had not been put back together properly came apart at about 30 meters. We had spare air and surfaced safely. After the dive we looked back at what happen, what we did, what we could have done better. The answer was nothing. But we decided then that we needed to keep things fresh in our minds. So now on every and I mean every dive, we practice a couple of drills on each dive. Only takes a few minutes out of the actual dive, but in our minds its worth it.

But I have to say I have loved this thread and it has been interesting to see the various points of view and the varying degree in what people perseve as risk....... I remember one tag line from a few years ago which rang true to me at least. At 50 dives I thought I knew everything, at 150 I realised how wrong I was!! Even now with hundreds of dives in the book, I keep an opened mind that there is always a better, safer way to something..... even the basics...

 

[Britton]

Okay, so you've all posed alot of good valid concerns and I cannot seem to make you understand that we had all the knowledge we needed for the extent of that dive. No we didn't have doubles, but that is why we only went a short distance in. We practiced the rule of thirds and whether we had singles or doubles, if we used a third of our air going in, we reserved two thirds to come out, the distance in puts us in the same scenario. We've had alot of training and are planning to get that official certification, but before we go spending thousands of dollars on equipment, we wanted to make sure this was something we planned to pursue. As for the ~500' passage from Catfish to Manatee, we have gone back and completed it. We've traversed the entire passage and we've gone in only to turn around and come back out....all part of development and skill building.

You know, I had some time to think last night and really thought I was gonna come back on here and tell you all that I was glad there were so many caring people in the world and that we took your advice and concerns to heart. But then, I log onto YouTube to find a couple people on their high horse making threats about reporting our videos to the State Parks and bringing sanctions against our instructor....Well, that changed my tune pretty quickly. I hope we never meet up with any of you. James - You are the only one who posted your concerns on YouTube that said you are not the ass you come across as and I have to tell you...you don't seem like an ass at all....The rest do! We'd love to meet up with you sometime.

To help you all enjoy the holidays and rest at ease, I've pulled the videos down. I for one, want to enjoy some time off without computers, so I won't be around to defend myself. Now.....I'm going skiing! Double diamonds.....you bet! Want to call the ski resort and warn them....go ahead, you'll find us at Snowshoe!

 

[DCBC]

Now.....I'm going skiing! Double diamonds.....you bet! Want to call the ski resort and warn them....go ahead, you'll find us at Snowshoe!

Unfortunately the only DD run at Snowshoe is Lower Shay's Revenge and it's currently closed, but good luck with that. Have a great holiday anyway and be sure to have a pint at Brandi's for me... BTW, in the East, REAL men ski Stowe...

 

[JamesK]

Britton, enjoy your trip. I used to do a lot of mogul skiing and have destroyed my knees doing it. I miss it. When you are near cave country again, PM me. The family and a few of us can get dinner and discuss things. I can still not justify what you did, but I would be very happy to help you in your way forward.

James

 

[lv2dive]

Okay, so you've all posed alot of good valid concerns and I cannot seem to make you understand that we had all the knowledge we needed for the extent of that dive. No we didn't have doubles, but that is why we only went a short distance in. We practiced the rule of thirds and whether we had singles or doubles, if we used a third of our air going in, we reserved two thirds to come out, the distance in puts us in the same scenario. We've had alot of training and are planning to get that official certification, but before we go spending thousands of dollars on equipment, we wanted to make sure this was something we planned to pursue. As for the ~500' passage from Catfish to Manatee, we have gone back and completed it. We've traversed the entire passage and we've gone in only to turn around and come back out....all part of development and skill building...

And all the seasoned divers responding to this thread can not seem to make you understand that you did not have all the knowledge you needed for that dive! If you had, you would not have gone into a cave with single tanks with yoke valves (no H or Y valves) - with no real way to share gas if necessary (no long hose) - not to mention with no regard for stirring up the bottom/creating silt! And even without all of the previous - on a single AL80 - thinking 1k PSI in tanks at the end of the dive in a siphon was an acceptable reserve, absolutely proves you did not have all the knowledge you needed for that dive. REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT park rules were broken by going in the overhead without OH certifications. There are so many more points to make but clearly no value to be had in beating my head against a brick wall . I guess felt the need to post just to set the record straight for anyone else who comes across this thread in the future. Back to holiday shopping.

 

[kotik]

I want to say something in response to Britton's latest, but there's just nothing in me that comes to mind that seems like it would do any good in getting through. James, I really applaud you, if anyone here does anything that makes a difference it looks like it's going to be you. Maybe my personality's just all vinegar, no honey...

This thread started in large part because of a previous person's post insisting that they were okay doing a cave dive, not interested in efforts to convince them why that's a bad idea, just cut to the good part and write back how to do it. Now along comes Britton, who just can't for the life of her make everyone understand that she knows everything she needs to know--

She wants to be an instructor. She seems to think of herself now as a somewhat experienced cave diver, and has started passing along tips to others out there that might decide to take the fast lane into the hobby:

I simply added the note about using more air while exerting more energy coming out so that divers who read that and don't have any cave experience will know that is something they should be aware of.

What are the odds that someone out there is waiting to hear what they want to hear, and decide that Britt's Tips are among the valid alternatives to the much too cumbersome process of formal training?

Sigh...

I have no doubt about who would win if Scubaboard had a poll for who is the most consistently positive and supportive contributor to the forum. In a previous post here, Lynne made a comment that I was going to describe as pessimistic, but I've changed my mind. It's not pessimism, it's just facing the facts about human nature-- there are some people that are never going to listen to anything except what they want to hear.

Some of the old school divers out there who feel obliged to insist that there are routes to learning other than "certification", just remember that your words ring across the planet, and will echo for a long time, and there are people out there just looking to read into it what they want to.

 

[redacted]

Some of the old school divers out there who feel obliged to insist that there are routes to learning other than "certification", just remember that your words ring across the planet, and will echo for a long time, and there are people out there just looking to read into it what they want to.

Are you saying it is better to tell people what is best for them rather than tell them the truth? Sounds like a very dangerous practice to me.

 

[techintime]

On the psychology of pushing limits/braking rules…frankly I think people do it because it’s fun. And in scuba diving it’s not illegal, at least not yet.

In Britton’s defense

Let’s be careful casting stones here. I would like to hear a roll call from those reading this forum who have never, ever pushed a training limit, broken a rule, did a dive without a required piece of equipment, cut school, sped down the highway or threw a snowball at a car, etc. If you have never sinned say “aye”. You won’t hear my voice.