Technical Diving Instructor Trainers - where, when & how?

[Wayne at DiveSeekers]

Here it goes again....its not the Agency, it all comes down to the Instructor, no different on the Tec side of things. I know 4 local Instructors who took a TDI Adv Nitrox/Stage Deco class. The instructor teaching class did one day with them at Dutch Springs 9local quarry) - basically follow me around shoot a bag and reach valves. Two of the 4 couldn't reach valves, no failures or proper air sharing techniques and then no simulated schedule. Instructor then said that the next dives would be off the coast to 130' of water. The two that couldn't reach valves so no way am I ready to jump off a boat and stopped training. The other two went off the coast and basically just dove with Instructor and got back on the boat for three dives (no skills, you are instructors, you are good). They got issued their cards and as a bonus got their Solo Card too. Now you know what my last post was about, I can go on and on and on with examples.

 

[mathauck0814]

Here it goes again....its not the Agency, it all comes down to the Instructor, no different on the Tec side of things. I know 4 local Instructors who took a TDI Adv Nitrox/Stage Deco class. The instructor teaching class did one day with them at Dutch Springs 9local quarry) - basically follow me around shoot a bag and reach valves. Two of the 4 couldn't reach valves, no failures or proper air sharing techniques and then no simulated schedule. Instructor then said that the next dives would be off the coast to 130' of water. The two that couldn't reach valves so no way am I ready to jump off a boat and stopped training. The other two went off the coast and basically just dove with Instructor and got back on the boat for three dives (no skills, you are instructors, you are good). They got issued their cards and as a bonus got their Solo Card too. Now you know what my last post was about, I can go on and on and on with examples.

My agency statement was more about the structural requirements of what different agencies require for instructors to be ITs. Being a recreational Course Director for PADI has little to do with being a good technical IT. That was the only case I was making. Obviously you still need to have quality ITs. The point is that at the very high levels, the agencies do have structural differences which might offer Devon specific advantages over one another.

 

[DevonDiver]

I think there is an exception to the CD rule with technical diving IT in PADI. I know there was a course run at PADI UK in Bristol to become a TECREC IT and I know for a fact that a lot of the guys were not PADI CDs. However that may have been PADI just trying to push the TecRec angle and are not doing it any more. I'd contact PADI UK ( sorry EMEA, stupid abbreviation) about it.

From what I understand, PADI created a 'fast-track' at Staff Instructor level. I believe it was for existing Instructor Trainers to cross-over from other agencies at that level (without having to become CDs).

I don't believe that existing PADI S.I.s can apply via that method (??)

---------- Post Merged at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:26 AM ----------

It boils down to " walking the walk, and not just talking" A technical IT should be out there doing it, and have a broad depth of experiance teaching it.

Eric... that's kinda the crux of my question. How does a Course Director have the time to 'be out there doing it' - as the commitment to become a CD tends (from what I've seen) to negate against having the 'luxury' time to do a lot of diving for yourself, or to meddle with relatively low-turnover tech programs.

The PADI Tech ITs that I know have all pretty much given up on 'course directing'. They were course directors for some while, made their money back, then moved entirely to technical training. However, as it stands, an existing 'focused/active' tech instructor would have to 'give up' on tech stuff, in order to climb the 'CD tree'... before going back to technical diving instruction. Seems very self-defeating, if the aim is to create quality tech ITs.

In contrast, an existing CD, could relatively easily buy their way into a tech IT role, with little/no experience beyond the bare minimums.

 

[waterpirate]

Devon,
I missed the finer point. A tech IT should not have to be a CD, and a CD should not be able to buy or crossover without doing the dives add nauseam. The tech IT thing is just like the tech instructor thing in my eyes. There are good ones and bad ones, the trick is sorting them out.

This is the slipery slope where tech becomes more " main stream wanted " . All the arguements that can be made for that crap on the rec side will wind up costing the ultimate price on the tec side.
Eric

 

[GrimSleeper]

Interesting question. I opted for the 'both... somehow' option in the poll, but if that wasn't an option I'd go for the first option, with the caveat that an IT should at the very least have the instructional experience to recognise and explain the difference between good and bad instruction.

I recently did a TDI Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures Instructor course, and my experience couldn't have been more different than the one Wayne at Diveseekers describes. It was taken for granted that we could do the diving - what was being assessed was our ability to present and explain the theory, demonstrate the skills and control student dives. No free ride, either: we were made to work, any parts of our teaching presentations (both theory and in-water) that the IT felt weren't up to the highest standard were thoroughly and usefully critiqued, and we were made to demonstrate that we could properly deploy and use every single piece of equipment we had on our rigs. Usually while also dealing with the comedy of errors presented by another candidate playing the student role, or while being hounded with failure after failure when playing the student for another candidate. It turns out that I can deploy my back-up DSMB while buddy-breathing maskless on a deco stop (that'll teach me to take the p*ss out of my wife for genuinely screwing up a reel deployment when she was playing the student!). Not something I'd ever thought of trying, so nice to know... The key point about the course, though, is that the IT slipped seamlessly between the two roles of excellent technical diving instructor and expert assessor.

One would hope (sadly, without much faith) that at this level of diving, instructor candidates are already extremely competent technical divers and able instructors before they even consider becoming a tech instructor. A tech IT's role should surely be to guide, tweak and assess, not teach - they shouldn't need to teach an appropriate candidate anything, beyond going over the specifics of their agency's standards and procedures. I didn't take the AN/DP Instructor course to learn how to teach the diving: I took it so that I could measure my self-perceived ability against an external standard and confirm that I can teach the diving (oh, and get a card that says so... ). In the process, I also learned a couple of things about teaching - you can always pick something up from a good instructor or IT.

As to having to be a CD before you can be a tech IT, that's just a complete nonsense, and perhaps speaks volumes about how PADI view technical diving.

 

[waterpirate]

Since you said PADI out loud I will expand on that notion. I am sure that I was not the only one horrified by the concept of PADI getting into tec certs and instruction. As Wayne stated it is allways about the instructor, but it is going to be very hard for PADI and others who shunned tec to develop competant ways to promote rec folks in their ranks to tec, without them doing the dives and gaining the experiance to do instruction. It is even more crucial at the IT level for that person to send IC's away for remedial on skills or experiance.

There is a PADI 5 star near me and I watched with great anticipation if they would venture further with their instruction, and to alot of peoples surprise and sigh of relief they have not. Not because they can not but they do not have the greatest reputation for turning out rec divers let alone tec divers.

The real question is whether or not the business model will allow 5 star franchises to opt out of the tec portion of the sales and marketing. Please feel free to remove the word PADI and insert any of the rec oriented agencies.
Eric

 

[padiscubapro]

Let me chime in here since I do Train ITs..

First I have to explain ANDI's standpoint for an IT... If you request being an It your probably not the right candidate.. We make very few Its... Its are made by a need in a specific area.. ANDI reaches out to those that we think are worthy candidates hence the low number of ITs within ANDI...

Over the years I have seen many great divers who make terrible instructors.. many great instructors that make terrible ITs... Being an IT is a completely different skill set... Sure an IT need to be good with his/her skills and be able to train divers, but we are talking about training instructors to be able to train other instructors, its very different...

At ANDI we usually do it very different than everone else.. First we approach a candidate, if accepted that candidate will generally work with another IT or ITD for a year or so helping conduct instructor classes.. Once the ITD is satisfied the candidate gets his /her ranking.. its not a simple take this class ect.. The only time its that way is for an existing IT thats adding a new certification.. If the candidate did all their training with an IT that person is generally referred to an ITD for final evaluation..

There are exceptions (of course) to the time rule... If a new regional headquarters is opened up an ITD would work closely with one or several canditates from the new RHQ for several weeks of intensive concentrated training and ratings would start to be given..

at ANDI a person can be a technical IT, while not being able to CERTIFY recreational instructors.. AT ANDI all experienced instructors can train divemasters and assistant instructors to become an instructor, with an IT or ITD doing the final evaluation.. The candidate must spend at least 6 months at each of the DM and AI levels assisting classes.. No FASTRACK here..

People have been asking me for a few years now why I don't teach instructor-level classes in tech. The answer has always been simple, I love tech diving and have no desire to 'climb the PADI CD tree'. I've already 'not bothered' to send in a 'Staff Instructor' rating, despite having done the course several times. It's a 'null' certification level... little/no benefit for the money IMHO. But I'd have to become a 'recreational' course director, in order to teach technical diving at instructor level (with TecRec). That frustrates me.

From what I see, being a successful course director and being a focused tech instructor seem quite mutually exclusive. Most course directors live in a classroom. Most tech instructors live on a deco bar..

What background matters most?

What 'current' and primary experience matters most?

Do all agencies require instructors to reach a generic/recreational instructor trainer level, before they can teach tech instructors?

What's most important, in your mind, being a focused and experienced technical instructor... or being qualified to teach recreational instructor level classes?

Poll has some options, but please feel free to amplify your thoughts in the thread...

 

[Trace Malinowski]

When experience, knowledge, and a passion to make a difference by teaching converge, it is often time for a diver to think about becoming an instructor. When you become the excellent instructor you wish you had when you were a student and you know what it takes to be a high-quality educator, it may be time to start training others. This is true for every level of diving including technical.

As far as safety goes or what classes you teach, you should only teach courses in the environment in which you believe you can control or rescue 100% of your students 100% of the time.

 

[boulderjohn]

Since you said PADI out loud I will expand on that notion. I am sure that I was not the only one horrified by the concept of PADI getting into tec certs and instruction. As Wayne stated it is allways about the instructor, but it is going to be very hard for PADI and others who shunned tec to develop competant ways to promote rec folks in their ranks to tec, without them doing the dives and gaining the experiance to do instruction.

This assumes that someone who becomes a PADI tech instructor will have only had experience through PADI. There are ways to get people without promoting within your ranks. I was recently in a situation where in order to do the tech dives I wanted to do, I had to tag along with a PADI tech class. It was at the advanced trimix level, with the students doing dives over 300 feet. The class was extremely thorough, and students were called on the most minor of errors. In chatting with the instructor, I learned that he had a very long history in tech diving and tech instruction. The students he was producing will be excellent tech divers. The fact that PADI has only been dong tech a couple of years was not relevant, since the instructor had a long history before that change.

 

[wedivebc]

I am a technical IT for TDI. I am a recreational IT for SDI. The recreational part was a requirement to become a technical IT. Although to become an IT I had to certify a minimum of 100 recreational diver and for each technical level I had to certify a number of students at that level.
I very seldom teach any form of recreational level diving yet I still certify instructors at that level.
I personally don't feel I need to don a single tank and a snorkel to be a good recreational IT. I do feel I need to be active as a tech diver and tech instructor to be a good tech IT.