When should a shop request your C-Card?

[lsorenson]

There are two things that I learned whilst listening to Legal Aspects Lecture at the many, many ITCs that I staffed:

1. There has never been a lawsuit based on selling air that did not relate to the quality of the air.
2. You open yourself to greater liability when you check for certification than when you just sell a product.

You think so...? I would never risk my business over a C card.... That is, if I had a business...!

 

[Thalassamania]

It not a matter of I think so, every lawyer I asked agreed, there was complete consensus that selling air as a product only made you responsible for it's quality while checking c-cards had the possibility of opening you to liability concerning how the air was used and how well trained the diver was. I'm no agreeing that that is the way it should be, just reporting the opinions of experts.

 

[bletso]

Paint ball enthusiasts generally don't have C-cards.. I fill them all the time. The best advice is know your customers as best you can.

Dale

 

[String]

There are two things that I learned whilst listening to Legal Aspects Lecture at the many, many ITCs that I staffed:

1. There has never been a lawsuit based on selling air that did not relate to the quality of the air.

1. 
   
   Worldwide not just the USA as far as i can find
   
   

   [*]You open yourself to greater liability when you check for certification than when you just sell a product.

Which is the logic most charter boats use here. If they check a qualification then "allow" a diver they are then making a judgement call on whether a diver is "safe" to do the dive. If something goes wrong they then have liability as they said he was safe. By not checking certs the responsibility remains squarely on the diver in question so if it all goes wrong they only have themselves to blame.
Again, in the uk at least there has never been a single legal action on any dive business as a result of not checking certs.

 

[String]

There are two things that I learned whilst listening to Legal Aspects Lecture at the many, many ITCs that I staffed:

1. There has never been a lawsuit based on selling air that did not relate to the quality of the air.

1. 
   
   Worldwide not just the USA as far as i can find
   
   

   [*]You open yourself to greater liability when you check for certification than when you just sell a product.

Which is the logic most charter boats use here. If they check a qualification then "allow" a diver they are then making a judgement call on whether a diver is "safe" to do the dive. If something goes wrong they then have liability as they said he was safe. By not checking certs the responsibility remains squarely on the diver in question so if it all goes wrong they only have themselves to blame.
Again, in the uk at least there has never been a single legal action on any dive business as a result of not checking certs.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There are two things that I learned whilst listening to Legal Aspects Lecture at the many, many ITCs that I staffed:

1. There has never been a lawsuit based on selling air that did not relate to the quality of the air.
2. You open yourself to greater liability when you check for certification than when you just sell a product.

That's a great point and one that is consistent with the legal issues and interpretations we encounter in the program compliance and evaluation we do.

If the shop just fills the tank, they are leaving both the assumption of the end use and the responsibility to determine the person's qualifications for that use, on the customer not the shop. Once the shop asks for a cert and then sells the gas, they have in effect made a judgment that the person is qualified.

For example: My first cert was received in 1985. Some of the people in that class no doubt still have their cert but may not have been in the water in the last 25 years. Does a cert mean they are qualified to dive, and by extension to get their tank filled? Obviously not, but if we both walked into a shop and we both pull out our 1985 certs, the shop owner cant tell the difference without asking questions about currency, competence, etc. That question and answer process however opens the owner to even more liability as he would have to make a judgment of the diver's qualification to dive based on his or her answers and that judgment will be questioned in the event the diver dies or is injured while diving - and in that case the outcome already suggests the shop owner's judgment was seriously flawed. What is worse is that it serves no real purpose as the answers may not be honest.

In the end it's better not to ask at the fill station/shop level. There may be criticism that the shop owner is not following a self imposed scuba industry standard, but the shop owner only needs to point out the wider range of uses and customers for the air products he sells, plus the above analysis of the pointless nature of carding to defeat that attack on two different levels.

I see some aspects of charter boat diving as being a little different. For example with a live aboard tech charter, if some moron offs himself on dive one, day 1 the trip is basically over so as a customer I appreciate the captain doing some basic screening of c-cards and experience levels. Also, unlike an LDS, the captain and crew can observe the diver and not allow them in the water if they do not demonstrate the ability, equipment or planning to do the dive safely, or the can prohibit the diver from making additional divers if they are unsafe in the water.

That is also just a general extension of the captain's overall liability when he determines the conditions on-site are suitable for diving.

 

[Diversauras]

Tanks, regs for sure, plus all fills when they don't know the diver, also when booking trips since level and competency make a difference.

 

[captain]

In my dirt track racing days the track recommended not require helmets, seat harness and other safety items. I asked the track owner why. His reply was if they were required the track would have to responsible that the all the safety equipment was approved, inspected, properly installed and used.

 

[wtcreaux]

Actually, I don't care if the LDS wants to see my C-card. HOWEVER, maybe I should request to see the LDS's certifications for providing me air?? (to make sure their competent, maintenance logs, within specs/regs)??

I prefer to use a reputable LDS with mutual trust and respect........flame away.....

 

[RonFrank]

In Denver where most do not dive the LDS requires a cert on file for fills. I've had to provide cert cards for all Dive Boats I have been on both USA FL and CA, and abroad.

There have been no exceptions. If you can not show (or call in) your Cert card you don't get on the boat.