Horrible Customer Service Experience

[redacted]

Go visit your local bike shop with a flatted tire and ask them to put a patch on the inner tube. Not going to happen at least in my experience.

A mechanic has to remove the wheel, remove the tire, inspect the tire casing, find the source of the flat, prep the tube apply the patch, install the tube and tire and test inflate. Some times the the repair will not pass the test, the patch didn't stick, there was *another* hole in the tube etc. That means the mechanic needs to start over.

Compare that to replacing the damaged inner tube with a new tube. Actually a bit less work, but the chances of success the first time are much higher.

In addition there is a real liability issue. Every product liability app I've ever filled out has been quite specific about repairing components vs replacement of same.

Tires? I used to work as a mechanic for a construction company, with many trucks, tractors, trailers, etc.

I don't know of any tire manufacturer that actually does repairs. Some tire dealers do, but they all limit repairs to simple punctures in the thread, anything else, side wall damage, slices etc. and they will refuse.

I've also "plugged" hundreds of punctures with kits purchased at the auto parts with generally very good success, but these kits were never sold by or recommended by the tire manufacturer.


Tobin

Sure, there are times when replacement is a better decision (cost, durability, safety) than repair. I would applaud the BCD manufacturer who provide customer service based on those considerations rather than the industry standard of replace is only option due to liability. A friend of mine put a hole in his Halcyon wing. Halcyon's official position was not repairable - only replacement. Then they sent him a piece of suitable material to make the repair.

Tire manufacturers repair repairable tires through their retailers and do acknowledge their repairability: Goodyear: U.S. Government Sales - Police Tires

 

[cool_hardware52]

Sure, there are times when replacement is a better decision (cost, durability, safety) than repair. I would applaud the BCD manufacturer who provide customer service based on those considerations rather than the industry standard of replace is only option due to liability. A friend of mine put a hole in his Halcyon wing. Halcyon's official position was not repairable - only replacement. Then they sent him a piece of suitable material to make the repair.

Tire manufacturers repair repairable tires through their retailers and do acknowledge their repairability: Goodyear: U.S. Government Sales - Police Tires

Kinda of making my point. Goodyear has a long document detailing the exact conditions under which a tire repair might be possible, for a specific law enforcement use, not really analogous to the BC market.

Tobin

 

[redacted]

Sure, there are times when replacement is a better decision (cost, durability, safety) than repair. I would applaud the BCD manufacturer who provide customer service based on those considerations rather than the industry standard of replace is only option due to liability. A friend of mine put a hole in his Halcyon wing. Halcyon's official position was not repairable - only replacement. Then they sent him a piece of suitable material to make the repair.

Tire manufacturers repair repairable tires through their retailers and do acknowledge their repairability: Goodyear: U.S. Government Sales - Police Tires

Kinda of making my point. Goodyear has a long document detailing the exact conditions under which a tire repair might be possible, for a specific law enforcement use, not really analogous to the BC market.

Tobin

What are you talking about????

"Long Document" One long page. Since it even covers repair restrictions and procedures, I was somewhat surprised how short and concise it was.

"For a specific law enforcement use" While it may have been generated by law enforcement customers, it appears to be instructions to all distributor for support of all customers with H-rated tires.

"Not analogous to the BC market" I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean because tire customers probably would simply reject any manufacturer who insisted on charging much higher prices to replace something that can be safely, easily, and cheaply repaired in many cases? (Note: I do again acknowledge that DSSs price for replacing a damaged bladder is cheap compared to other mfgrs charges for repair parts and service.)

 

[lv2dive]

...I can't imagine why you did not inflate your wing over night as soon as you received it. I do it as a matter of course, even now that mine are several years old. I naver had a bad bladder, but have found I need to snug down OPV or elbo nut.

Well I for one appreciate this thread for the simple reason that it had never occurred to me to inflate my wings overnight to check for leaks. And that is AFTER having an elbow nut come pretty loose - I knew something was wrong but it was only leaking on the surface (when I was vertical vs. horizontal). I just needed to tighten it down, but had I inflated it ahead of time I would have figured it out much quicker. Appreciate the thought for the future.

On the subject of how many wings - I have three - and I'm the only diver in my household. I'm planning on purchasing another as soon as the time is right. Is there something off about that number? I don't think six wings is too many if there is a reason for them.

 

[cool_hardware52]

What are you talking about????

"Long Document" One long page. Since it even covers repair restrictions and procedures, I was somewhat surprised how short and concise it was.

"For a specific law enforcement use" While it may have been generated by law enforcement customers, it appears to be instructions to all distributor for support of all customers with H-rated tires.

"Not analogous to the BC market" I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean because tire customers probably would simply reject any manufacturer who insisted on charging much higher prices to replace something that can be safely, easily, and cheaply repaired in many cases? (Note: I do again acknowledge that DSSs price for replacing a damaged bladder is cheap compared to other mfgrs charges for repair parts and service.)

The analogy falls short IMO because:

Tires are far more costly than bladders, 5-8 times the cost, making repairs potentially worth the cost and effort.

Tires are a routine wear item, wing bladders are not. If sufficient institutional users (law enforcement) can benefit from repaired or refurbished (retreaded) H rated tires regional tire dealers / distributors could make the investment in time, training and equipment to provide these services. The odd wing bladder every few weeks or months is not the same as a steady flow of tires.

The use of high speed rated tires would be limited to essentially two groups, commercial / institutional (law enforcement) and performance enthusiasts. Hard to see many performance enthusiasts lining up for retreads.

That leaves a very specific, fairly narrow range of users who are very likely to much better informed about what is possible, and what is not possible with respect to repairing a tire. In short the fleet maintenance personal at the Highway Patrol probably aren't going to send many unrepairable tires to be repaired and then throw a fit when the dealers tells them "no"

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Well I for one appreciate this thread for the simple reason that it had never occurred to me to inflate my wings overnight to check for leaks. And that is AFTER having an elbow nut come pretty loose - I knew something was wrong but it was only leaking on the surface (when I was vertical vs. horizontal). I just needed to tighten it down, but had I inflated it ahead of time I would have figured it out much quicker. Appreciate the thought for the future.

On the subject of how many wings - I have three - and I'm the only diver in my household. I'm planning on purchasing another as soon as the time is right. Is there something off about that number? I don't think six wings is too many if there is a reason for them.

I inquired about the number of wings the OP had, 2 identical singles wings and 2 identical doubles wings + some other unidentified wings for one simple reason, it would be unusual for one diver to need duplicates. Unusual, but not impossible, we do have customers that maintain a set of gear at home, and second set at a vacation home.

More often multiple sets of gear means multiple divers. The more divers using common "pool" of gear the more difficult it is for any one of them to be 100% how every item was used every time.

Not wanting to assume anything, I inquired. Apparently the OP was not the only diver with access to the wings in question.

In perfect world no diver would ever have a problem with DSS gear. When problems do occur our goal is to prevent a re-occurrence, problems benefit nobody. Part of that process can be educating the user. If I'm not communicating with all the users that have access to a given set of gear that can be pretty hard to do.

Tobin

 

[ScubaVideo]

Wow, you just can't pay for this kind of notoriety about a product and the manufacturers service. The only question really, was it good or bad notoriety? I was kind of neutral about DSS, though I like that it is USA made. On the other hand when I walked into my LDS with a leaking SP BC, I walked out with a brand new one. I'm sure they could have argued with a customer, made accusations, etc. But instead they reaffirmed why I'm a life long customer. Though I use a Halcyon BP/W now, I still use their other equipment knowing they stand behind it.

Maybe it was the OP's fault, maybe the shipper, or baggage handler etc. He really should have tested it when he got it. Really, why wouldn't you? To me that puts it on the OP, but still fighting him in public defending your position with thousands of views on this thread - that's just not a good idea. I will be sticking with my Halcyon, not because the OP was right but because there should not have been such a response from the manufacturer. All it would have really taken was a one sentence response that you will call him and take care of it. Whether or not you reduced the price or stood by the $50 plus his shipping cost, airing dirty laundry - well you get my point.

Here are a few thoughts:

Never air your dirty laundry
The customer is always right
Made in the USA - because that matters.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Now that this is sort of taking a turn toward repairing vs. replacing, I have a question for those that are advocating repairing a damaged bladder.

You send your damaged wing to Tobin, and he tells you that it's only $50 for a new bladder. That's pretty cheap in my opinion considering that the wing cost over $325 new.

But you want it repaired for whatever reason instead.
What would the reason be? It could only be to save money. Why else would you want to repair it instead of getting a new bladder?

Anyway, let's just say that Tobin agrees to repair it for you................because you insist.......and he wants to make you happy.

My question is this: How much do you think he should be charging for this repair? $35? $40?

I'm guessing that some of those that are proponents of the manufacturer repairing your damaged are thinking that the cost or a repair should be cheaper. Probably thinking around $15 or $20...................Nobody works for that cheap, what would you imagine the shop rate should be?

Steps would include: disassembly, surface prep, conduct repair, cure time, test/inspect repair, reassembly, test again to ensure there were no other damages, clean up the consumables and hazmat. How long do you think this would take?
Probably longer that just replacement of the bladder.
But the perception is that a repair should somehow be cheaper than replacement. The reality is that many time a replacement is just more cost effective.

IMO, if you are thinking that a repair is going to save you $15 or $20, you might be mistaken.


I'd rather just pay the $50 and know that I had a new bladder.

-Mitch

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Wow, you just can't pay for this kind of notoriety about a product and the manufacturers service. The only question really, was it good or bad notoriety? I was kind of neutral about DSS, though I like that it is USA made. On the other hand when I walked into my LDS with a leaking SP BC, I walked out with a brand new one. I'm sure they could have argued with a customer, made accusations, etc. But instead they reaffirmed why I'm a life long customer. Though I use a Halcyon BP/W now, I still use their other equipment knowing they stand behind it.

Maybe it was the OP's fault, maybe the shipper, or baggage handler etc. He really should have tested it when he got it. Really, why wouldn't you? To me that puts it on the OP, but still fighting him in public defending your position with thousands of views on this thread - that's just not a good idea. I will be sticking with my Halcyon, not because the OP was right but because there should not have been such a response from the manufacturer. All it would have really taken was a one sentence response that you will call him and take care of it. Whether or not you reduced the price or stood by the $50 plus his shipping cost, airing dirty laundry - well you get my point.

Here are a few thoughts:

Never air your dirty laundry
The customer is always right
Made in the USA - because that matters.

Tobin has a good product, sells it at a good price, offers expert advice and is a great diplomat / salesmen. Well he has 3 out of 4 anyways and arguably the most important 3.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

If my opion of customer service is a rant, then I suppose it was a rant.. Not really though, I had thought we were allowed to express our opions based on experience.. no?

We all do express our opinions here. But you raised the bar with what was sort of an arguement from authority, with this:

"I am a manufacture, of wings (some of which have been specifically named in previous threads on the subject), wetsuits, masks, and many more items... I have been in the manufacturing industry personally for 8 years and my company for over 25."

But then you never go on to reveal who the authority (you, the competitor) is, only to indicate that you are one.

Which then makes it more than just an individual board member expressing their viewpoint. Many scubaboard members that are involved in the dive industry make it obvious by their avatar, signature, username or some other means that they are not only a private forum member. Seems only fair if they are expressing opinions here, that it's transparent they have some sort of stake in the game and their opinion might be more than just an opinion.

-Mitch