7' Hose Questions (not routing)

[Cave Diver]

Maybe I am missing something? What’s the purpose of a 7' hose in the first place? The value escapes me if I’m not exiting a confined space with another diver.

I sure don’t want somebody more than arm’s-length with my second stage unless we can’t get through the same hole. I absolutely want eyeball-to-eyeball contact, visibility allowing, when the situation has deteriorated to the point of sucking off the other’s bottles.

The purpose for a 7' hose was to allow single file exit from a restricted environment.

Many of us see value for it in OW as well. If I need to have someone closer to me during an air sharing ascent, I don't have to undo the full length of hose, but I always have the option to. If I need to control them I can still grab their harness strap.

Air sharing is not always a result of an OOG situation. I had a friend who got bad air recently. When they got to depth they started feeling badly and noticed a bad taste. They made a calm ascent on their own, but they could have shared air with someone on a long hose with good air while making the ascent if needed.

If I'm doing a submarine dive with someone, I expect those people to have solid skills. If they bumped into something and accidentally sheared off a hose causing a sudden gas loss and a subsequent gas sharing experience, I don't need to be eyeball to eyeball with them on ascent. Having the freedom to move away from each other a bit and put a bit of distance, especially if we're having to hang on a line is beneficial. I don't want to hang on in stiff current with my buddy right on top of me. I'd rather them be able to be a bit above or below me while we're playing flagpole.

Diving with a long hose in OW isn't a necessity, it's convenience. But doing so keeps my gear the same, my configuration the same and my responses the same no matter what type of diving I'm doing. It doesnt add any extra complexity or problems to have it and it brings the benefits already mentioned. To me, its one of those "I'd rather have it and never need it, than need it and not have it" things.

 

[Lobzilla]

When I show the 7' long hose deployment and re-stowing to OW divers who have never seen this, they are always amazed how neat and clean the whole hose routing is.

Just try it. You will be amazed too how the long hose allows for a clean, simple routing compared to the usual "OW snag loops".

 

[Akimbo]

The purpose for a 7' hose was to allow single file exit from a restricted environment…

Agreed, and I would consider a 7' hose for a dive like that.

…Air sharing is not always a result of an OOG situation. I had a friend who got bad air recently. …

I don’t understand how being out of gas that you trust breathing is different from being out of gas completely once you have made the decision to share. Does that change your procedure somehow?

…If I'm doing a submarine dive with someone, I expect those people to have solid skills. If they bumped into something and accidentally sheared off a hose causing a sudden gas loss and a subsequent gas sharing experience, I don't need to be eyeball to eyeball with them on ascent. Having the freedom to move away from each other a bit and put a bit of distance, especially if we're having to hang on a line is beneficial. I don't want to hang on in stiff current with my buddy right on top of me. I'd rather them be able to be a bit above or below me while we're playing flagpole…

I didn’t experience difficulty sharing on a standard hose length, even for the sort time we were in windsock mode. I figure 3x in ~50 years was about 0.03% of my dives. I suppose it is a balance between the failure potential and inconvenience that the extra 5' of hose represents on 99.97% my dives versus an inconvenience I didn’t experience on the 0.03% where it might have been useful.

I am sure that my mentality has been molded by experiencing a lot of failures created by backup and safety systems. Exclusive of pressure hulls, failure mode analysis dictated that three concurrent failures occur before the diver is endangered on a saturation system. The tendency in the early era was to add “safety” systems, both by divers and engineers. Unfortunately, a lot of divers perished because the complexity was so great that failures were difficult to correctly and quickly diagnose. In many cases, backup systems introduced as a result of an accident were later replaced by solutions as simple as better labeling and flow diagrams or well-placed oxygen displays. As a result, I am heavily biased toward the “simpler is safer” viewpoint.

…Diving with a long hose in OW isn't a necessity, it's convenience. But doing so keeps my gear the same, my configuration the same and my responses the same no matter what type of diving I'm doing. It doesnt add any extra complexity or problems to have it and it brings the benefits already mentioned. To me, its one of those "I'd rather have it and never need it, than need it and not have it" things.

Between the changes in gear since learning to dive, military, commercial, developing gear, and the range of environments; I never had the luxury of getting all that used to a single configuration. That probably explains why it has very little value to me.

I hope none of my comments come across as dismissive or diminishing of your points because it definitely is not my intent. A mentor taught me that “engineering is the process of determining the least painful compromise.” This is one of those compromises where we bring different sensibilities to the table.

 

[Cave Diver]

I don’t understand how being out of gas that you trust breathing is different from being out of gas completely once you have made the decision to share. Does that change your procedure somehow?

Procedure is dictated by circumstances. A "blech, this air tastes funny, I think we should get out of here" is a different circumstance than "Oh crap! I'm outta gas! Help!" In one instance you could have a buddy in a highly excited state that is ready to bolt for the surface who you need to calm down and help control. The other, you have a buddy suffering a minor inconvenience that is capable of their own independent ascent while sharing air with you.

I didn’t experience difficulty sharing on a standard hose length, even for the sort time we were in windsock mode. I figure 3x in ~50 years was about 0.03% of my dives. I suppose it is a balance between the failure potential and inconvenience that the extra 5' of hose represents on 99.97% my dives versus an inconvenience I didn’t experience on the 0.03% where it might have been useful.

If the standard hose and configuration works for the diving you do, then there is no solid reason for you to consider changing it. I would suggest you at least giving the alternate method a try before dismissing it. You may find it's not as bad as you're envisioning.

I am sure that my mentality has been molded by experiencing a lot of failures created by backup and safety systems. Exclusive of pressure hulls, failure mode analysis dictated that three concurrent failures occur before the diver is endangered on a saturation system. The tendency in the early era was to add “safety” systems, both by divers and engineers. Unfortunately, a lot of divers perished because the complexity was so great that failures were difficult to correctly and quickly diagnose. In many cases, backup systems introduced as a result of an accident were later replaced by solutions as simple as better labeling and flow diagrams or well-placed oxygen displays. As a result, I am heavily biased toward the “simpler is safer” viewpoint.

I can understand the sentiment, but for me at least this is arguably as simple as it gets. OOG diver gets the reg I'm breathing. I duck my head and they've got roughly 3' of hose instantly available. That's comparably to a standard recreational octo setup and I dont have to search to find it, it's in my mouth and I know it works because I was just breathing off of it. My backup is under my chin and readily accessible.

Between the changes in gear since learning to dive, military, commercial, developing gear, and the range of environments; I never had the luxury of getting all that used to a single configuration. That probably explains why it has very little value to me.

Military and commercial have their own way of doing things, so it's understandable. In recreational diving (which I still consider tech to be) I've found that a single configuration works pretty much across the board in a wide range of environments.

I hope none of my comments come across as dismissive or diminishing of your points because it definitely is not my intent. A mentor taught me that “engineering is the process of determining the least painful compromise.” This is one of those compromises where we bring different sensibilities to the table.

Not at all. It's a discussion. I'm not going to try and convince you the way I dive is best, just provide reasoning and logic behind the choices. If you see value in it, then perhaps you'll give it a try. If not you've at least learned another viewpoint. The act of considering another's viewpoint doesn't mean you have to accept it as your own.

 

[Den7]

I think I understand what you are asking. This is with a conventional octo I'm guessing. the answer is kinda no. I've seen divers try stuffing it into the bc, excess hose into a pocket, under the cummerbund, etc and while it looks like it is more streamlined it also creates more problems when the hose gets hung up, tangled, yanks the cummerbund crooked, etc. The cleanest set up so far that provides the best possible benefits all the way around for MY STYLES of diving, including teaching, is the looped long hose and bungeed octo.

Sorry for the hijack.

Hi Jim! How are you doing? Thank you so much for sharing. Yes, you got my question right. I mean conventional octo for regular dives (not cave dives). I also saw a lot of divers I would even say about 70% bend their octos' hoses and stick them into the BCDs' rings near shoulders with the hoses going under their arm-pits first. Are you not in favour of any octopus holders? I think the one as per picture attahced is quite nice. The hose goes under your arm-pit first then into the first kinda semi-circle then the hose is bent and goes into another semi-circle. It is perfectly streamlined (I guess), does not stick out, the mouthpiece firmly stays in one place and the diver is able to instantly quick-release even with his eyes closed just by grabbing it and pulling off the holder (off these two semi-circles that is). What is wrong with this method? I know it's not a very good idea to bend the hose but I've lately seen one diver with this octo holder and I kinda liked it.

The method I use is without any hose bending. I simply use two tear-away octo holders. The first one holds my octo in place, the second one holds the hose from floating / draging around and it stays comfortably under my arm pit. I can also momentarily quick-release just by grabbing and pulling it off. It takes only about a second or even less and it does not get hang up, tangled or stuck in any way. However, since I think it is very important for cave divers to be as perfectly streamlined as possible I thought that they might have had some special system to get their gear "tucked in" and that's why I asked and wondered.

My apologies for the hijack as well.

 

[Cave Diver]

What is wrong with this method? I know it's not a very good idea to bend the hose but I've lately seen one diver with this octo holder and I kinda liked it.

I tried various methods of attaching the octo when I first got certified, including the one in your pic. For me, the hose tends to slide up and down in it and be a nuisance. I ended up wrapping zip ties around my hose before and after that holder to limit the the travel, but it was still a nuisance. They are also prone to breaking and require having a handy place to clip them off to.

However, since I think it is very important for cave divers to be as perfectly streamlined as possible I thought that they might have had some special system to get their gear "tucked in" and that's why I asked and wondered.

I use the same method for streamlining my gear in OW as I do in a cave. Octo is bungied on necklace and I breathe off the primary. Even if I'm using a standard length primary hose instead of the 7' one I do this. It's just clean, consistent, and I find it works better for me. I made my octo holder about 10 years ago now and it still works fine.

 

[Den7]

Most of us bungy the octo (or backup reg) under our chin. There are several ways to accomplish this, depending on your preference. Issues with stuffing an octo, is if it starts to free flow, can you easily get to it to stop it? If you need to deploy it can you find it and get it to an OOA diver quickly? If you're in tight quarters (shouldnt be an issue for an OW diver) do you have room to dig it out?

Having the octo bungied under the neck allows me to access it without even using my hands. I can tuck my head to my chin and grab it with only my mouth if need be. If an OOA diver "mugs" me from behind and takes my primary from my mouth, I instantly know where my back up is. If my reg gets knocked out of my mouth somehow, same thing, it's right there.

There are a variety of ways to approach the primary and backup question for OW and overhead environment divers alike. Just depends on what your goals and preferences are.

Thank you for your comments, Cave Diver. I appreciate.

Yes, I can easily get to it to stop it if it starts to free flow. I can also detach it even with my eyes closed and put it back to its initial place within just one second. I would at least need the length of my forearm to dig my octo out (for tight quarters) but normally this is not an issue for an OW as you justly noticed. I was also thinking to try the rubber necklace to hold my octo but since it has to be quickly released and primarily used by OOA emergency diver it might be a problem, unless I give (or OOA diver possibly in panic) grabs my main reg and I would have to use the octo for myself.

My goals and preferences are to be nicely streamlined without having any equipment / gear draging and floating all around me. I basically manage but I thought I would pick up cave divers brains if they don't mind it of course and ask if they have any special cave diving systems / accessories for their gear streamlining.

 

[Cave Diver]

My goals and preferences are to be nicely streamlined without having any equipment / gear draging and floating all around me. I basically manage but I thought I would pick up cave divers brains if they don't mind it of course and ask if they have any special cave diving systems / accessories for their gear streamlining.

An admirable goal, regardless the path you choose to accomplish it. For the most part, cave divers don't use any special accessories. In fact, most of my gear is pretty simple. A bit of line, a couple of zip ties, some cut up innertube, a bit of rubber tubing and the occasional piece of bungy makes up most of my kit. People can be pretty innovative with a few bits and pieces of things to work with. In my experience all the latest, greatest, brightly colored widgets sold by dive shops don't do much more than put money in their pockets.

 

[Den7]

... I use the same method for streamlining my gear in OW as I do in a cave. Octo is bungied on necklace and I breathe off the primary... Having the octo bungied under the neck allows me to access it without even using my hands....

Hmmm... I just thought that if you have your octo on a necklace that allows you to access it even without using your hands then I assume you have it configured from your right hand side that is for you to use (not for your buddy). You would have to twist it around to give it to your dive buddy and it would have a kink in the hose and also when swimming along with your body on octo fitted on the right will either make the hose go under your chin and run across your throat or behind your head. Plus the hose is longer for your buddy if situaited on the left... If you have it connected from the left hand side then you would always have that kink in the hose if used (picked up) by you without using hands... This is just an observation. I have my octo configured from the left so the necklace will act just as a simple octo holder in this case and won't allow me to grab the octo without using hands, I would have to detach it from the holder anyway and throw behind my head (to avoid twists, leakage, and kinks) to use myself, or use it conventionaly for its main purpose that is for the buddy in trouble. Well, either way your suggestion to use necklaces as regular octo holders is quite interesting and I think I will give it a try to check if this option is better than the one I currently use.

 

[Cave Diver]

Hmmm... I just thought that if you have your octo on a necklace that allows you to access it even without using your hands then I assume you have it configured from your right hand side

Correct.

that is for you to use (not for your buddy).

Correct.

You would have to twist it around to give it to your dive buddy and it would have a kink in the hose and also when swimming along with your body on octo fitted on the right will either make the hose go under your chin and run across your throat or behind your head.

I donate the primary (long hose) that I'm breathing off of. That way my buddy gets a known, working regulator I can easily access my backup under my chin, and my primary has plenty of length that we're not nose to nose, even without undoing the entire length.

Plus the hose is longer for your buddy if situaited on the left... If you have it connected from the left hand side then you would always have that kink in the hose if used (picked up) by you without using hands... This is just an observation. I have my octo configured from the left so the necklace will act just as a simple octo holder in this case and won't allow me to grab the octo without using hands, I would have to detach it from the holder anyway and throw behind my head (to avoid twists, leakage, and kinks) to use myself, or use it conventionaly for its main purpose that is for the buddy in trouble. Well, either way your suggestion to use necklaces as regular octo holders is quite interesting and I think I will give it a try to check if this option is better than the one I currently use.

On a single tank setup, both of my hoses come off of my primary on the right side in somewhat of a V configuration. It will look something like this:

O<===

With the O being my first stage and the <=== representing the two hoses coming off of the first stage.