No longer about the features

[CcrBoy]

It seems that rebreathers are reaching the phase of development where they are all pretty much the same on the features (or will be in a few years).

Is now about customer support, market share and manufacturing. I'm talking about the 95% market, not the 0.00001% that wants to do 8 hours 800' dives.

I'm sure I would be more than happy with any shipping CCR on the market given my diving profile.

My local dive store has a complete ready-to-go Inspiration on display. Someone could walk in and buy the unit and training and a week later (after completing training) walk out with it.

Who cares about brand XYZ if its not shipping yet or I got to wait a year for delivery.

Know why most CCR divers in England dive the Inspiration? Because it was available. Simple.

The company that understands large volume manufacturing, support and marketing will win the CCR market. And believe it or not, the location of the battery won't matter.

For the fan boys: tell me the number of dealers, the number of instructors, location of detailed information on the web, how many months/years of testing, support structure and the all important delivery time.

- Kent

 

[Hootis]

Totally agree with you on this Kent.

All ECCR's are adequate for most tec/rec divers. There will always be discussions about which features offer the most benefit, but the simple fact of the matter is this...most newbies won't wait. People by nature are impulsive, and even though one particular rig may have the ideal feature set, it will not be the most popular rig available if they cannot ship units. Of all the rigs that have competed for business in the last 5-10 years, the inspiration was not the most technologically advanced, but it was solid; it did not offer every bell and whistle as standard equipment (or even as an option in some cases) but it was a good unit...and people could get them. At a price that was fair. And look who OWNS the market now. Stack up every other rebreather in existence in one pile, and it's not even close to the mountain of yellow turtles sold. Doesn't mean they have the best rebreather ever made...just the one that your LDS is likely to sell, and a new user is likely to buy.

Some people complain about customer service and support, but that is a reality in this industry, just like in any other...a stream of spare parts takes time to develop, and a commitment from the manufacturer (including financial)...APD and SDS are committed, and at his point they're financially positioned better than any of the other players.

Competition is good for the breed...and I hope another player will come into the arena...but it needs to be a player with production capability to meet the demand...some one with the financial means to make a 3-5 year investment in this expanding market. But also someone who is not afraid of the incredible amount of liability this market exposes a manufacturer to.

 

[caveseeker7]

And believe it or not, the location of the battery won't matter.

Have you read the CSS report on your beloved Inspiration's battery in the loop? Or did you just not get it ? Gives a whole new meaning to the term "vaporware", doesn't it.

Just because Volkwagen build millions and millions of beetles doesn't mean they're great cars. I'd take a Porsche over it any day, even if I have to wait for it.

Same with RBs, I want good engineering and performance, quality rather than quantity.

 

[BigJetDriver]

<http://www.greywolfinnovations.com/test_data.htm>

 

[DrMike]

They made an error in their calculations in the report its not an issue. The actual ppm is 0.06ppm not 0.24ppm.

"It is sad that the US Navy uses an exposure limit just because “ 0.15 ppm is the most conservative limit found” (page 5 of the report) while at least two other sources ( Ultra Life and Ferro Corp) quote a limit of 5 ppm (33 times higher), even more so since there is no exposure limit set by any safety institution ( except for the FDA, which states 1mg/day, max 100 ppm for use in pharmaceuticals).

With a limit of 5ppm the max allowable exposure at 97.5 (!) m would be (according to Capt. Knafelc) 5*1/10.7 = 0.46 ppm.

The exposure established under normal diving conditions was 0.06ppm which is 7.7 times below this exposure limit.

The exposure of 2ppm at a full short circuit would fall above the exposure limit at depths deeper than 15m (2.5 bar), but is irrelevant anyway as this would happen when the battery compartment is full of sea water.(The top of your scrubber then too, and that’s not very breathable….)

To base safety recommendations on exceeding an exposure limit quoted only by one manufacturer (the report calls this “one industry 8hr exposure limit”) seems rather overly cautious……."

 

[BigJetDriver]

To base safety recommendations on exceeding an exposure limit quoted only by one manufacturer (the report calls this “one industry 8hr exposure limit”) seems rather overly cautious……."

Dr. Mike, et al,

An interesting phrase..."seems overly cautious"...! Let's think about this for a moment. No one knows for sure what the effect is of breathing this stuff hour after hour at sea level. Now we are going to breathe it hour after hour under pressure. We DO know for sure, however, that it is a carcinogen, among its other effects.

Now you wish us to argue about the acceptable limits for breathing this carcingogen? Perhaps it is is only PARTIALLY CARCINOGENIC at this level, mmmh? Perhaps one would only be partially affected, or, in the end, partially dead from it!

Whose lungs are these that are receiving the brunt of this chemical anyway? In particular, they are MINE, among many others, in this instance! Perhaps your lungs are less sensitive than mine, and you believe it won't bother you.

In my business, caution limits are everywhere. The Vne limit, or "red-line" on the top of my speed-tape is one such. We keep it in mind constantly and do not exceed it because BAD THINGS HAPPEN WHEN WE DO!

To offer the opinion in a world-wide public forum that a caution level having to do with carcinogens is "overly cautious", (...and to be frank, your comment is merely an opinion unsubstantiated by any research or body of facts...), is in-cautious at best, and totally irresponsible at worst!

 

[CcrBoy]

Have you read the CSS report on your beloved Inspiration's battery in the loop? Or did you just not get it ? Gives a whole new meaning to the term "vaporware", doesn't it.

Just because Volkwagen build millions and millions of beetles doesn't mean they're great cars. I'd take a Porsche over it any day, even if I have to wait for it.

Same with RBs, I want good engineering and performance, quality rather than quantity.

Volkwagen vs Porsche is the wrong analogy. If you want to compare a $7000 Inspiration to a NASA space suit... Okay NASA wins. I guess a "Porsche" rebreather would be in the $50k range. For that money would I expect a CCR far better than Inspiration.

Pick any two cars within the "same" price range. Are they really any different for 99% of the buying public? I rather drive a Chevy SUV, but given the same price I'm sure the Ford version would make me happy.

I read about the battery issue and jury is still out if its a real issue or not, but frankly I would be happy to see them moved out of the head. I thought the new electronics moved the batteries to the handset so not a long term issue for AP.

My original post started with in the next "2-3" years. Just as the current Inspiration doesn't have a HUD, but the new version does. All good features will migrate to all production rebreathers and bad features removed.

In time there will be almost no difference between brands (within a price range). In five years the only debate is which color is the best.

 

[caveseeker7]

I read about the battery issue and I'm sure the other CCR fan boys will be happy. The jury is still out if its a real issue or not, but frankly I would be happy to see them moved out of the head.

Exactly what are "fan boys"? Anybody that doesn't agree with you that an Inspiration is the way to go? Cheap shot using the 2nd half of my name?

Let me assure you that I'm not particulary happy about the detected gases.
Several people I like dive Inspirations, that takes the fun factor right out of it. It does, however, give people that understand that this rebreather has design flaws a very solid example. Even if the amount of offgasing is not as dangerous as Navy engineers and doctors estimate it could be, it's still an issue based on bad design. There is at least one documented case of a battery getting wet enough to explode during a dive. For me, that is a real issue. As is offgassing. Batteries have no place in a rebreathers loop. And as I posted elsewhere, that is not a great, recent discovery. Carlton engineers have been doing it for over three decades.

I thought the new electronics moved the batteries to the handset so not a long term issue for AP. ... Just as the current Inspiration doesn't have a HUD, but the new version does. ... All good features will migrate to all production rebreathers and bad features removed.

I'm not so sure about that. I asked to have a loop inside the scrubber and head at DEMA, but they refused to open the head/cannister assembly. From what I was told both controllers are located inside the head, so the batteries might well be, too. Maybe someone who has actually had a chance to peak inside might help us out here.

You keep referring to features, like the HUD. Yes, a HUD is a great feature, increases safety by putting one O2 readout into your field-of-vision at all times. Integrated deco computer, nice feature as it runs off three rather than one sensor. ADV, nice feature, lessens task loading on descent. OC-integrated DSV, nice feature, increases convinience and safety by easily and immediately switching to bailout without DSV removal.
But these are all features. Options. Niceties. They can (and are) all be added to most any rig, either by the factory or owner/aftermarket.
But they are not sound, good, basic engineering.
If that isn't there, all the nice features in the world will be eye-candy.

 

[ronccr]

simply stated, you have 2 choices..

a - dive a rig with batteries off gassing into the loop that the navy states as critical (NOT a good choice)

b - dive a rig that does not have batteries off gassing into the loop ( a very good choice)

Navy states in testing it's bad to breath off gassing from a battery and have the battery in the loop.... There is nothing in battery off gassing that is helpful to the human body so why temp fate... We are not talking about NASA engineering, we're stating BASIC rebreathers engineering 101....

regarding electronics underwater - smart diver always assumes failure and is prepared for it.. personally I prefer a backup that does not require a battery or electronics. A diver should be well trained and versed in all methods of bailout / backup and diver skill, to fly manual is a simple task and does not requores electronics.

Cheers
R



cheers
R

 

[caveseeker7]

simply stated, you have 2 choices..

a - dive a rig with batteries off gassing into the loop that the navy states as critical (NOT a good choice)

b - dive a rig that does not have batteries off gassing into the loop ( a very good choice)

Navy states in testing it's bad to breath off gassing from a battery and have the battery in the loop.... There is nothing in battery off gassing that is helpful to the human body so why temp fate... We are not talking about NASA engineering, we're stating BASIC rebreathers engineering 101....

Nor Volkswagen and Porsche prices. With the recent APD price increase the difference is now about $300.

regarding electronics underwater - smart diver always assumes failure and is prepared for it ... to fly manual is a simple task and does not require electronics.

And a good engineer gives you the equipment for it.