Master.........Really?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Well, those are certainly part of being a PADI Master Diver. However, as I am sure you already know, the PADI Master Diver must also be able to empower synergistic initiatives, visualize impactful experiences, recontextualize site-based enrichment, and expedite proactive outcomes in modalities which avoid outdated paradigms and disaggregate process-based critical thinking.
While that's cute, it's naught but mildly amusing hot air. My definitions, on the other hand, are firmly rooted in rigorous research and peer review, to wit: From Novice to Expert: Excellence and Power in Clinical Nursing Practice, by Patricia Benner, perhaps not quite as amusing a read, but a good one, never-the-less.
 
While that's cute, it's naught but mildly amusing hot air. My definitions, on the other hand, are firmly rooted in rigorous research and peer review, to wit: From Novice to Expert: Excellence and Power in Clinical Nursing Practice, by Patricia Benner, perhaps not quite as amusing a read, but a good one, never-the-less.

Well, "cute and mildly amusing" is not such a bad thing, in this day and age.

As to Patricia Benner's paper, her "rigorous research" seems to consist of heavily borrowing from the well-known Dreyfus Model of skill acquisition - itself a pedantic belaboring of the obvious - and then larding it up with a lot of silly, pompous "educatorese" jargon.

Interestingly, the Dreyfus model, conducted for US Air Force pilot training, may actually be more apppropriate to pilots than to nurses or scuba divers. As for me, I'd be happy to have nurses that follow the rules, exactly and to the letter. And I suspect most hospital administrators, doctors, and insurance companies would anxiously concur.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to post something that I posted before. The point is that any system that certifies someone as a Master Diver without even a pretense of having them reach the Competent (not to mention Expert) Level as defined below is, IMHO, a dishonest scam.

Novice: Diving knowledge is minimal and solely 'textbook.' It does not connect decisions with actions and ignores the context in which the action will be taken. The available suite of skills rigidly adhere to learned rules, other responses are not readily available. The possible use of knowledge for planning is without situational awareness and lacks discretionary judgment. The diver has available only rational decision making tools, nothing is intuitive or holistic. Individual actions are seen (and taken) in isolation with no conception of, or capability to deal with, complexity. Performance is unlikely to be satisfactory unless closely supervised.

Beginner: The diver has developed a working knowledge of key aspects of tasks and appreciates that complex diving situations exist. Since situational awareness is limited, all attributes and aspects tend to be treated separately and given equal importance. Though the diver begins to use global characteristics of situations that are recognized from limited prior experience, problems are primarily solved by using rote guidelines for action that are based on situational attributes. The diver is starting to make rudimentary attempts to decide on appropriate actions in context, but is limited to applying actions as a series of steps, and thus can not be expected to successfully resolve complex situations. Though supervision is needed for the accomplishment of the overall task, straightforward tasks likely to be completed to an acceptable standard and the beginner is able to achieve some steps using his or her own judgment.

Competent: The diver now has a good working knowledge of diving, as well as some background knowledge of diving, and as a result can deal with knowledge in context. Recognition of relevance is now present. Actions are seen, at least partly, in terms of longer-term goals. The diver is able to cope with simple multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs. The diver sees actions (at least partially) in terms of longer-term goals. The diver performs best with standardized and routine procedures, but is able to achieve most tasks using his or her own judgment and can alos engage in conscious and deliberate planning. Skills are fit for the purpose intended, though they may lack refinement.

Proficient: The diver posses a depth of understanding of the disciplines that make up diving, as well as those specific to diving, so that the diver can make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one. The diver can deal with complex situations holistically, and decision-making is more confident. Performing to a fully acceptable standard is routine, as is seeing what is most important in a situation. Deviations from the normal pattern are quickly perceived. Decision-making is less labored. Maxims are used for guidance, but there is understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and how individual actions fit within it. The diver is able to take full responsibility for his or her own work (and that of others where and when applicable).

Expert: The diver is capable of making correct decisions on an intuitive basis. He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations. In complex circumstances, the diver moves easily between intuitive and analytical approaches, using analytic approaches solely in completely novel situations or when problems occur. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and simultaneously grasps alternative approaches. The diver is comfortable taking responsibility for going beyond existing standards and creating original interpretations using a vision of what is possible. Excellence is achieved with relative ease.

There was a time when most certified divers were competent, now they are almost always novice, rarely a beginner. There was a time when becoming an instructor started with being an expert diver, today one is lucky to find an instructor who is even a proficient diver. What is usually lacking is not the ability to do one of the twenty skills, or even trim and buoyancy, what is missing are critical components of two items:
  1. The diver can make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one.
  2. Maxims are used for guidance, but there is understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation.
In my gut the critical phrase to truly define a Master Diver is: "He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations."

You might want to read up on the relationship of dangerous attitudes and accidents. Four of the dangerous attitudes are macho, invulnerability, impulsiveness, and anti-authority.
 
Last edited:
You might want to read up on the relationship of dangerous attitudes and accidents. Four of the dangerous attitudes are macho, invulnerability, impulsiveness, and anti-authority.

AKA: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots."
 
AKA: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots."

I really like Tony Kern's approach to safety analysis. Dude has obviously had to deal with a few egos in his time.

Amazon.com: Redefining Airmanship (9780070342842): Anthony Kern: Books

Pity diving accident analysis is nowhere near the level of aeronautics. Guess we need to figure out a way of killing more than one or two at a time or maybe take out a school when we screw up.

It would be nice if root cause incident analysis was part of becoming a "master diver". Too often incident analysis is shallow and stops at the first chance to sell yet another gadget to divers. On the other hand, such analysis might lead to dissecting the current sport dive training regime and that might be bad for business.
 
I really like Tony Kern's approach to safety analysis. Dude has obviously had to deal with a few egos in his time.

Amazon.com: Redefining Airmanship (9780070342842): Anthony Kern: Books

Pity diving accident analysis is nowhere near the level of aeronautics. Guess we need to figure out a way of killing more than one or two at a time or maybe take out a school when we screw up.

It would be nice if root cause incident analysis was part of becoming a "master diver". Too often incident analysis is shallow and stops at the first chance to sell yet another gadget to divers. On the other hand, such analysis might lead to dissecting the current sport dive training regime and that might be bad for business.

While aviation incidents undoubtedly receive more thorough investigations, aviation is generally subject to much more government regulation and scrutiny. Maybe our lousy accident analysis is the price we scuba divers must pay for freedom from governmental intrusion. If so, it's not a bad deal.
 
Really?!!!?

Where did you get that BS?
SSI requires(I should know, I have my MD card from them) AOW, 4 specialty classes, 50 dives, minimum; & Stress & Rescue.

Their Stress & Rescue course deals not only with rescue skills, but it also puts the diver through a number of stressful drills.
As a prerequisite for Stress & Rescue certification you need to have a valid CPR & First Aid certificate.

The class in which I earned my NAUI MSD required AOW, Rescue, CPR, First Aid and O2 as prerequisistes. The class consisted of 20 hours of lecture, a 2 hour closed-book exam, six pool sessions and fourteen dives. I'd admit that maybe half the material was sort of out of scope for MSD, but if we failed a part like Invertebrate ID (I nearly did, stupid bryozoans), we wouldn't have earned the MSD card. I was required to have CPR and First Aid certificates in order to get my Open Water.

I feel that MSD should be basically the hardest thing you can do without hitting tech.
 
I'm going to post something that I posted before. The point is that any system that certifies someone as a Master Diver without even a pretense of having them reach the Competent (not to mention Expert) Level as defined below is, IMHO, a dishonest scam.

Novice: Diving knowledge is minimal and solely 'textbook.' It does not connect decisions with actions and ignores the context in which the action will be taken. The available suite of skills rigidly adhere to learned rules, other responses are not readily available. The possible use of knowledge for planning is without situational awareness and lacks discretionary judgment. The diver has available only rational decision making tools, nothing is intuitive or holistic. Individual actions are seen (and taken) in isolation with no conception of, or capability to deal with, complexity. Performance is unlikely to be satisfactory unless closely supervised.

Beginner: The diver has developed a working knowledge of key aspects of tasks and appreciates that complex diving situations exist. Since situational awareness is limited, all attributes and aspects tend to be treated separately and given equal importance. Though the diver begins to use global characteristics of situations that are recognized from limited prior experience, problems are primarily solved by using rote guidelines for action that are based on situational attributes. The diver is starting to make rudimentary attempts to decide on appropriate actions in context, but is limited to applying actions as a series of steps, and thus can not be expected to successfully resolve complex situations. Though supervision is needed for the accomplishment of the overall task, straightforward tasks likely to be completed to an acceptable standard and the beginner is able to achieve some steps using his or her own judgment.

Competent: The diver now has a good working knowledge of diving, as well as some background knowledge of diving, and as a result can deal with knowledge in context. Recognition of relevance is now present. Actions are seen, at least partly, in terms of longer-term goals. The diver is able to cope with simple multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs. The diver sees actions (at least partially) in terms of longer-term goals. The diver performs best with standardized and routine procedures, but is able to achieve most tasks using his or her own judgment and can also engage in conscious and deliberate planning. Skills are fit for the purpose intended, though they may lack refinement.

Proficient: The diver posses a depth of understanding of the disciplines that make up diving, as well as those specific to diving, so that the diver can make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one. The diver can deal with complex situations holistically, and decision-making is more confident. Performing to a fully acceptable standard is routine, as is seeing what is most important in a situation. Deviations from the normal pattern are quickly perceived. Decision-making is less labored. Maxims are used for guidance, but there is understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and how individual actions fit within it. The diver is able to take full responsibility for his or her own work (and that of others where and when applicable).

Expert: The diver is capable of making correct decisions on an intuitive basis. He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations. In complex circumstances, the diver moves easily between intuitive and analytical approaches, using analytic approaches solely in completely novel situations or when problems occur. The diver sees the overall 'picture' and simultaneously grasps alternative approaches. The diver is comfortable taking responsibility for going beyond existing standards and creating original interpretations using a vision of what is possible. Excellence is achieved with relative ease.

There was a time when most certified divers were competent, now they are almost always novice, rarely a beginner. There was a time when becoming an instructor started with being an expert diver, today one is lucky to find an instructor who is even a proficient diver. What is usually lacking is not the ability to do one of the twenty skills, or even trim and buoyancy, what is missing are critical components of two items:
  1. The diver can make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one.
  2. Maxims are used for guidance, but there is understanding that conclusions will (and should) vary according to the situation.
In my gut the critical phrase to truly define a Master Diver is: "He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations."

You might want to read up on the relationship of dangerous attitudes and accidents. Four of the dangerous attitudes are macho, invulnerability, impulsiveness, and anti-authority.



This three line take on something that is as simply progressive as the alphabet, suggests a complete lack of concept or stature, that leaves not even a wry smile.
 
Well, "cute and mildly amusing" is not such a bad thing, in this day and age.

As to Patricia Benner's paper, her "rigorous research" seems to consist of heavily borrowing from the well-known Dreyfus Model of skill acquisition - itself a pedantic belaboring of the obvious - and then larding it up with a lot of silly, pompous "educatorese" jargon.

Interestingly, the Dreyfus model, conducted for US Air Force pilot training, may actually be more apppropriate to pilots than to nurses or scuba divers. As for me, I'd be happy to have nurses that follow the rules, exactly and to the letter. And I suspect most hospital administrators, doctors, and insurance companies would anxiously concur.
I guess you know little of nothing about nursing.
You might want to read up on the relationship of dangerous attitudes and accidents. Four of the dangerous attitudes are macho, invulnerability, impulsiveness, and anti-authority.
I don't recall advocating macho, invulnerability, impulsiveness, and anti-authority. If you have decided that, "He or she no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations" equates with any of those four terms ... the problem is with your grasp of the English language, because there is neither intent nor evidence of such a coupling.
This three line take on something that is as simply progressive as the alphabet, suggests a complete lack of concept or stature, that leaves not even a wry smile.
Of lack of both.:rofl3:
 
I am a scuba diver since about 1 1/2 year with closely 250 dives! And i am working on my DiveMASTER.

I am not perfect, or i do not know everything!

But, i think, it is not about how many dives i or others have! Or how long i am scuba diver!
I think its the ability, to see things before they happend, or to know what your buddy or Instructor needs!

i rather diving with someone who is new, than an 10 year diver with 150 dives in his log!

I did a beachdive a while ago with a friend, who invited an other diver....
the other diver show's up with tec gear on a beachdive! he dives for years, he said! :confused:

I mean nothing happend was a normal dive. But the reef is in only 20 feet of water, i mean what an paranoid idiot was that.

You guys should have seen his gear, he was ready for the Titanic!

So anyhow, if you have enough dives (minimum requ.) and you think your are confident, yes go for it! Become a Master...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom