Which BP/W system to buy?

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Rawalker,
Not to get into a pissing match with you over this, but a few points...
DIR can have great value as just a way of thinking about what should or should not happen on a dive, and how you can create a better outcome. DIR got big on the Internet in the late 90s and soon after...for recreational benefits..for people who would be unlikely to ever adopt ALL of DIR's concepts , gear and skills.....it was pushed by thousands of people around the world, to help eliminate the mass marketing nonsense, where new colors of BC's , with bigger pockets and more straps, would help to dictate future training ideas....
You should certainly be able to see some benefits to DIR ideas....the proactive prevention of your buddy running out of air, ideas like horizontal trim ( as opposed to allowing people to swim head up and feet down)...and many, many others.

When George decided to do an overhead donning of the gear, this was George being George....most divers even on WKPP, would have their tank sitting behind them on the boat, and sit into it...and I'm sure you knew that :) What George did demonstrate though, is that if he was in the water, where it is a weightless environment, the bp/wing system would be effortless to put on or take off.

I would not want anyone to be a sheep about this stuff...and as much as George got a lot of bad press from his internet personna, if you were on a boat with him, and started asking real questions, you would be amazed at the courteous and detailed answers you would get....with solid reasons. In person, this stuff was always about showing exactly why we do things, and letting the results speak--the results the new person hearing this/watching , would get as they tried this.

REgards,
DanV

Dan,
I absolutely see the advantages that DIR can have.
I see the advantage to a BP&W (I own 2 BP and 2 wings)

I don't see this as a pissing match the advise you are giving is good for people that want to dive with a group of divers using the same configurations and techniques.
I don't see that happening often outside of formal groups or buddies that make the decision to adhere to a regiment. In that way each member can rely on the gear and skills of their buddy.

Unfortunately I don't consider that a valid option for myself and in knowing that I can also summize it is not a valid option for a great number of other divers.

Divemaster and instructors may often be acting as a solo diver and not able to rely on the student as a skilled buddy. This can often lead to a different choice in configuration. Then there is the insta buddy or having to deal with a vacation diver that makes a few dives a year. DIR may not be something they are familar with.
 
Divemaster and instructors may often be acting as a solo diver and not able to rely on the student as a skilled buddy. This can often lead to a different choice in configuration. Then there is the insta buddy or having to deal with a vacation diver that makes a few dives a year. DIR may not be something they are familar with.

Isn't this why divers are taught to do a buddy check? I've always found that a proper buddy check was the optimum time to explain my configuration and any necessary emergency procedures to a new buddy. BP&W, single-piece harness, long hose, RB... I've never encountered a problem briefing buddies in whatever configuration I was diving...

This is an entry-level, core, scuba procedure. OW course, confined water #1.

It's a basic skill..and it allows any 2 divers to safely buddy regardless of configuration.

RAWalker.... don't you do that already as a 'dive pro'? :confused:

As I've mentioned before... divers should be wary of choosing expensive 'equipment' solutions to problems that are skill based.
 
DD,
Sure do, but do you rely on your student to react as a seasoned well trained diver on dive 1-4 of their OW training dives?

Divemasters are often in place as safety divers while instructors are taking care of the lesson and do not have a formal buddy.

Divemaster are also often guides and not buddied up.

Divers should also be aware of the limitations of their dive buddy shouldn't they?
 
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Sure do, but do you rely on your student to react as a seasoned well trained diver on dive 1-4 of their OW training dives?

I expect a student to display the skills and procedures that I have taught them. They don't get into the water until they've satisfactorily done the pre-dive procedures. Simple as that.

Buddy Check is not the preserve of a 'seasoned well trained diver'. It's Open Water 101.

Divemasters are often in place as safety divers while instructors are taking care of the lesson and do not have a formal buddy.

That varies a lot depending on the location. Here in Asia, it is rare for instructors to have qualified divemaster support.

As an instructor, I would not have a 'formal buddy' for the dive. However, I would still ensure that I paired with a student diver to conduct checks. This is not only for my own safety, but also to set an appropriate example. You will, of course, remember the importance of 'role model behaviour' from your recent DM training.

Divemaster are also often guides and not buddied up.

Divemasters, acting as guides, should have a buddy. They should complete a buddy check prior to entering the water on every dive. They are not exempt from the standards of safe diving practices. They are not qualified solo divers. They should not set a bad example to customers.

However, some divemasters do get sloppy. Is that the situation you are trying to illustrate?

I asked a simple question, as it had a bearing on the 'issue' you were trying to communicate. You would be discredited and unprofessional if you were a qualified at a 'professional level', but failed to adhere to safe diving practices by neglecting to conduct 'buddy checks'. I won't assume that is the case and I mention it only because it is relevant to the debate (varying kit configurations require buddy checks. Conducting buddy checks is an issue of applying basic training and avoiding unsafe diving practices).
 
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I am a rec diver and got my BP/W this year. I have absoluely no interest for tech or whatsoever.

I got a Oxycheq Mach V, a S/S plate and Dive-Rite non adjustable harness that includes a single quick release on the left shoulder. After some dives in different conditions (dark lakes in dry suite, live aboard in Komodo etc.), I am absolutely glad I got the one with the quick release. It just makes donning and doffing so much easier - in and out of the water. I tried several times to get out of the harness without opening the release and it works. But it is so much easier to just open that buckle; especially in not ideal conditions.

As a non-overhead, non-deco diver, I fail to see the advantage of not having a quick release on my rig. The advocates of the hog version state that you can doff the rig with a "roll", a chicken wing move or over your head but I thing noone can argue that it is easier to simple unclip the left shoulder strap (especially with thick dry suites or in choppy waters). So, that is definately a plus for the quick release that IMO noone can deny.
So what is the disadvantage for the regular rec diver? I cannot see a single one. Price is not an issue (the dive rite quick harness release with d-rings is $35 on LP), the potential failure point "issue" seems only to exist in theory for the kind of diving regular rec divers do (otherwise we would read a lot of accident reports from people diving regular BCDs as these have at least two buckles that are usually of questionable quality if compared to my dive rite).

So, I'd recommend a harness with a simple QR for any rec diver out there as it adds comfort without having any serious downside. BTW, I am not a fan of these cluttered all adjustable, all padded harness as I cannot see a real advantage for the type of diving I am doing. But a QR is benefical for me.

So I can only see an advantage in comfort and no real world disadvantage - at least for rec diving (I cannot comment on tech diving as my experienced is limited on that one).
 
So what is the disadvantage for the regular rec diver? I cannot see a single one. Price is not an issue (the dive rite quick harness release with d-rings is $35 on LP), the potential failure point "issue" seems only to exist in theory for the kind of diving regular rec divers do (otherwise we would read a lot of accident reports from people diving regular BCDs as these have at least two buckles that are usually of questionable quality if compared to my dive rite).

As a crew member on a dive boat I can assure you that there are downsides to the quick-release buckles.

They can be somewhat difficult to "find" when gearing up, especially if wearing gloves. Ironically, this is even more of an issue for people who are not terribly flexible. (If you don't think you have the flexibility to don/doff a one piece harness... try retrieving a buckle/strap stuck between your back and plate.) QR buckles can be also be hard to open/close wearing gloves as well.

As far as failure points, they do fail on many occasions. The don't usually fail on a dive, but when a tank in dropped on them, when they are shut in the gate of a pick-up, when they get caught between boards on a dock. I've seen dozens of people miss one or both dives of a charter due to a "failure" of a plastic quick release buckle. Again, not being a "you're gonna die" doomsayer here, but the marginal utility (if any) for most divers is limited, with some potential downside risk.
 
Like I said, use a continuous piece of webbing and lace in a buckle low on the shoulder strap (closer to the plate) if you absolutely must. Even if the buckle fails, one strap will become looser (but not off) and while it might take a few minutes underwater, it can be tightened up. Even if it can't, you can still surface with it as is and fix it on the surface with no tools, although you might have to just go without the buckle the rest of the day.

Personally, I don't have a buckle on mine but did try it out once. It worked fine. Best of both worlds. No fancy harnesses but the ease of one in a basic webbing harness.
 
I got a Oxycheq Mach V, a S/S plate and Dive-Rite non adjustable harness that includes a single quick release on the left shoulder. After some dives in different conditions (dark lakes in dry suite, live aboard in Komodo etc.), I am absolutely glad I got the one with the quick release. It just makes donning and doffing so much easier - in and out of the water. I tried several times to get out of the harness without opening the release and it works. But it is so much easier to just open that buckle; especially in not ideal conditions.

Marc,

Apparently you haven't used a harness without any QR buckles. It does require a bit of fiddling to set up a hogarthian harness and a bit of technique to use one.

It's very common to see divers familiar with jacket bcs set up harness far to tight. Most jacket users run their straps very tight in an attempt to keep the tank from flopping around. This just is not necessary with a plate. The combination of shoulder straps, waist strap and crotch strap act together to simply position the plate on the divers body. The plate removes the tankk flop and roll.

Too tight leads to "I need a buckle"

When folks start "training wheels" from day one they are far more inclined to "try several times" and then give up. Equipment solutions to a skills problem.

Tobin
 
They can be somewhat difficult to "find" when gearing up, especially if wearing gloves. Ironically, this is even more of an issue for people who are not terribly flexible. (If you don't think you have the flexibility to don/doff a one piece harness... try retrieving a buckle/strap stuck between your back and plate.)
So, if you really feel that it is easier to don the rig without the QR (which I don't), you can simply keep it closed for donning. You will still keep the ability to get out of the rig way easier.

..., but when a tank in dropped on them, when they are shut in the gate of a pick-up, when they get caught between boards on a dock. I've seen dozens of people miss one or both dives of a charter due to a "failure" of a plastic quick release buckle. Again, not being a "you're gonna die" doomsayer here, but the marginal utility (if any) for most divers is limited, with some potential downside risk.

Well, I simply have different experience with this one. On all of my dives I have yet to see a broken buckle. And none of my buddies have experienced a failure yet (and they amost all dive poodle jackets, so there are lots of potentials fails for buckets :wink:). Of course, we take good care of all of our eqipment anyways!
If tanks fall etc. all lot of thinks can break/take damage: my second stages, my two cam band buckets, my spg, my inflator, my wing, my feet... In my opinion, chances are slim that it will hit my single quick release bucket and these slim chances do not surpass the benefits of easy doning and doffing of the rig for me.

But obviously it is a matter of individually weighing the pros and cons: Easy doning and (especially) doffing VS. a potential break. What I don't like in these discussion is that some people insist on their position that a hog harness is the only way to go (not specifically directed at you). It is not, it is a matter of preference (at least for the rec diver).
 
Marc,

Apparently you haven't used a harness without any QR buckles. It does require a bit of fiddling to set up a hogarthian harness and a bit of technique to use one. When folks start "training wheels" from day one they are far more inclined to "try several times" and then give up. Equipment solutions to a skills problem.

Tobin

So I honestly ask: What is the difference between a (non-adjustable) hog harness and a non-adhustable harness with a single QR that I dive. If I don't open the QR bucket, I pretty much have the "feeling" of a hog harness, don't I? And, btw, I did try a hog harness with a TDI instructor locally.

Regarding your "skills problem": that is BS in my book. I do diving recreationally, that is for fun. If it is easier for me to get out of my rig when wearing dry suit, doff the rig in the water etc., than this is part of my fun while diving. If this has no real world down side, I go for it. Nothing to do with skills.
 
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