Which BP/W system to buy?

[on_two_wheels]

Well, I'm actuallly one of those guys...sold my IQ pack on here and glad I did. Less is more in many ways when it comes to diving, in my opinion. However, I had a buckle laced into my harness early on but not anymore. Personally, I think the "comfort harnesses" have no more inherent risks but are simply a waste of money. Anything that can be done in one of those can be done in a 2" webbing harness for less. On the other hand, they might make an easier transition from jacket bcd to bp/w. Plus, my IQ pack was 2 lbs positive that had to be offset with weight.

 

[DevonDiver]

However, a few years and a title doesn't lend much credibility. I've seen instructors that were horrendous divers and seemed to know just enough to keep the title.

This is the subject for debate in a separate thread, but to explain my (over-zealous) response earlier.... This stems from some frustration I have that certain Divemasters don't recognize that holding a 'professional certification' is not the same as being a dive industry professional.

As you say, there are some instructors who are terrible divers. In truth, they don't tend to last long in the industry....

There are also a horde of terrible divemasters. The divemaster course is easily attainable for any diver. It potentially cheap, easy and enjoyable to undertake. The overwhelming majority of people who certify as divemasters never enter scuba diving as a career.

The trouble with the divemaster certification is that it attracts an undeserved amount of prestige from lesser qualified divers - who don't differentiate between someone who just holds an empty qualification.... and someone who works in the industry as a long-term career.

People go on holiday and see how professional and knowledgeble their dive guide appears. The dive guide who is a certified divemaster, but also spent the last XXX years diving day-in, day-out and has the combined experience and lessons learnt from 000's of dives.

People wrongly assume that is what it means to be a divemaster. They confuse the words 'professional level' with the actual meaning of professional (i.e. it is your 'profession'.... your career).

Worst still.... the newly certified Divemaster gets an ego trip. ..and delude themselves into believing that the words 'professional level' next to their certification card.... actually makes them into a 'professional diver'.

Divemaster ego trips are the bane of instructors. We see them regularly and, where possible, help those individuals gain perspective and understanding. Sadly, we can't do that on the internet...

 

[DevonDiver]

Okay....so here's a question: What if someone has a one piece webbing with a buckle laced into which, when unbuckled allows an extra couple inches of slack? It's not really a failure point in that if it breaks, the harness is lose but not broken. In fact, it could even be tightened underwater to take out the slack if laced properly.

That's a fine solution if a diver needed assistance to help remove the harness. It would certainly be cheaper that purchasing a comfort harness and would achieve the same result.

Personally, I think the "comfort harnesses" have no more inherent risks ....

Just two examples...

I've seen divers get snarled up with line during DMSB deployments. Normally, that is because the line is allowed to tangle on a protrusion in the harness. In the worst instance, a tangled line could drag the diver to the surface behind the ascending DSMB. A potentially life-threatening incident. A quick glance through the BSAC Annual Reports shows numerous incidents involving uncontrolled ascent from DSMB deployment. It's not just cave divers who should worry about entanglement.

Likewise, I teach recreational and technical wreck penetration. Many divers enjoy these diving activities. The removal of any entanglement potential from the divers configuration is vital. I've been tangled several times on lines, nets, cable or pipes when wreck diving. It takes a lot of self-control to extract yourself without assistance. I would advise any lesser experienced diver to avoid that situation at all costs. You can help avoid that situation be having a 'cleaner' and less complicated harness....

but are simply a waste of money. Anything that can be done in one of those can be done in a 2" webbing harness for less.

Agree 100%.

On the other hand, they might make an easier transition from jacket bcd to bp/w.

Do they? Or is it a case that they allow a diver to compensatefor a lack of skill, training and appropriate technique with the new equipment.

Any time a diver uses new equipment, they should get the appropriate training and advice on how to use it. It doesn't matter whether it is a scooter, twinset, reel, camera or BP&W.

What frustrates me, is when divers neglect to learn how to use the kit properly... and then publicly denounce the equipment as unsafe or unsuitable due to their own self-imposed inability to operate it properly.

Such dis-information does not benefit other members of the community who are looking for accurate advice.

 

[RAWalker]

I dive the OMS Deluxe Comfort. It has no backpad like the IQ pack and althought the shoulder pads are wider than the 2" webbing they are not padded so as to effect buoyancy. As I stated earlier I prefer a release so I can doff horizontally in rough water I also will admit to liking a sternum strap to locate and hold the shoulder straps more inboard.

I do have another scenario for the continuous webbing divers or those considering it.
It's a rescue scenario that goes like this:
You are diving at a location that doesn't allow divers to carry cutting tools.
you are brought to the surface unconscious, not breathing and the rescuer is unfamiliar with your harness has no knife and is a long way from shore or a boat.
What do you think is about to happen?

 

[on_two_wheels]

DEVON:

I know a GUE trained diver that had a SMB line tangle on his gear. That can happen to anyone if you have a small lapse of attention.

My transition comment was referring to the feel. If you feel as comfortable in comfort harness as you did it "could" make learning the bp/w easier since you won't be getting as used to the feel (or lack of) the harness. As for wreck diving, we've been talking about switching from a jacket bcd. I don't think the divers in that area are jumping through wrecks once they get bp/w with or without a comfort harness. If they are, Darwin will have his way with them. I see the comfort harness as a tool. I used it as one. Now it's gone.

Honestly, much to your dismay, I had no training on a bp/w. I put it on and went diving. Next thing ya know I have an instructor asking who my PPB instructor was because I had mentioned I had only 12 dives on it. Like I said, kind of like our military training, instructors these days teach us just enough to get us out the door. The rest you learn in the field...or in our case, the water.

Be safe in the sandbox, bro!!

 

[on_two_wheels]

I dive the OMS Deluxe Comfort. It has no backpad like the IQ pack and althought the shoulder pads are wider than the 2" webbing they are not padded so as to effect buoyancy. As I stated earlier I prefer a release so I can doff horizontally in rough water I also will admit to liking a sternum strap to locate and hold the shoulder straps more inboard.

I do have another scenario for the continuous webbing divers or those considering it.
It's a rescue scenario that goes like this:
You are diving at a location that doesn't allow divers to carry cutting tools.
you are brought to the surface unconscious, not breathing and the rescuer is unfamiliar with your harness has no knife and is a long way from shore or a boat.
What do you think is about to happen?

Can you give an example of a location that doesn't at least allow shears? Nonetheless, I'll play the game. It'll take an extra rescue breath but I'm pulling all hoses connected to the first stage over the head (meaning back above the tank). Then I'm releasing the tank and weights. I'll live with the rest during the surface swim. Gotta make do. That said, a rig comes off a limp body easier than it does if they guy were doffing it himself so that scenario is IF it was so ridiculously tight I couldn't get it off. The D-rings at the shoulder aren't just for clipping. A thumb inside one makes pulling it off the shoulder quite easy.

 

[vladimir]

Any time a diver uses new equipment, they should get the appropriate training and advice on how to use it. It doesn't matter whether it is a scooter, twinset, reel, camera or BP&W.

Oh no! I had no idea how in-over-my-head I was! Can you recommend a good bp/w class? You know, one that will teach me the chicken-wing maneuver? Should I dust off my Scubapro Classic in the meantime? It's a wonder that I survived the last hundred dives.

 

[Codyjp]

I dive the OMS Deluxe Comfort. It has no backpad like the IQ pack and althought the shoulder pads are wider than the 2" webbing they are not padded so as to effect buoyancy. As I stated earlier I prefer a release so I can doff horizontally in rough water I also will admit to liking a sternum strap to locate and hold the shoulder straps more inboard.

I do have another scenario for the continuous webbing divers or those considering it.
It's a rescue scenario that goes like this:
You are diving at a location that doesn't allow divers to carry cutting tools.
you are brought to the surface unconscious, not breathing and the rescuer is unfamiliar with your harness has no knife and is a long way from shore or a boat.
What do you think is about to happen?

I wouldn't dive in a location like that. I mean, what would I do if I found myself tied up between a great white fighting with a polar bear engaged in a fight to the death? I'd have no way on earth to defend myself and they would inadvertently kill me!

Seriously mang!

 

[DevonDiver]

I do have another scenario for the continuous webbing divers or those considering it.
It's a rescue scenario that goes like this:
You are diving at a location that doesn't allow divers to carry cutting tools.
you are brought to the surface unconscious, not breathing and the rescuer is unfamiliar with your harness has no knife and is a long way from shore or a boat.
What do you think is about to happen?

I don't need to 'think' what would happen. I know.

I've taught over 20 rescue courses in BP&W with single-piece harness. ALL students completed ALL exercises and techniques, without resorting to cutting harnesses.

Tech courses also involve demonstration of rescue techniques. Divers complete these every day without having to cut casualties out of their equipment.

It is a very definitive fact that single-piece harnesses are easy to doff and don. They are easy for rescue. People do this stuff sucessfully and easily every day! You just need to use the correct techniques. If you want to argue this point, then you'd have to ignore the evidence that 000's of technical and recreational divers use single-piece harnesses every day, across the globe... the complete courses in them, train in rescue skills, get onto and off of boats with them etc etc etc.


If someone doesn't know the correct techniques to achieve something, then they might assume that the thing couldn't be done. That would be an error of ignorance.

 

[RAWalker]

The Mexican Rivera has gotten quite strict about gloves and cutting tools although it's been my experience that if you admit to and prove you are a DM and understand the no touch no take policy they will allow you the gloves. Shears I've been told to keep hidden in a pocket.

Many tropical vacation divers don't use d-rings on their webbing. Part of the minimalist thing.
The real point was the inexperienced rescuer without a knife would have to spend more time thinking of what to do with your rig. You, I and even they may know it has to go but your rig may add a delay in their ability to perform the rescue.

It's just another thing to consider. Stuff happens beyond our control to the best and most prepared no question on that. It's just a matter of you deciding on what you are willing to accept as allowable risk.