Sad News

[caveseeker7]

What makes me angry is the feeling (i do not say fact) that the breather-community does not want to hear that it even MIGHT have something to do with either the machine or the training.

I certainly want to know just that. I'm sure there are plenty of others on and off the board who have the same intrest. Why would we not want to know about a faulty design, part or lacking training/procedures, whatever.
I think what most of us don't want is getting slammed with rumours and insults. The content and the tone make all the difference.

"the guy was to stupid to unlug his inflator-hose", like i heard it from the Weinberg-accident.

Prime example of what I ment. I had met Garrett and enjoyed his company. So statements like the one you quoted are not what I want to hear. They make me just as mad as the public statements from some of your WKPP buddies over the years.
Claudia's accident report on the other hand I read several times.

and until an investigation is complete we should not jump to any conclusions.

Yeah, why don't we give that a shot.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Folks,

In aviation we use this method when it comes to accidents. (1) We accept the fact that the news reports will be wildly inaccurate, and "all over the map", so to speak.

(2) We make no statements until we get forensic analysis from our safety teams on the spot, and our data analysis teams.

(3) We then take the published findings, particularly the NTSB report, and send them to all of the stake-holders for serious sessions of discussion.

(4) These sessions take the form of: (1) reconstruction of the accident as it took place moment to moment, (2) question and answer periods, (3) and finally, summation. The up-shot of this is: "What have we learned about what we are doing from this accident?" Even more importantly: "What have we learned from this that will be useful in preventing future occurrences of this type?"

The interview with Farmer Jones, who says: "Dang it! I told 'em them _________ machines was dangerous! (...fill in blank with favorite devil machine...)" is essentally meaningless at best, and harmful to thoughtful process at worst.

As hard as it may seem at times, limiting one's self to sincere condolences, and waiting for the facts to be gathered and analyzed is indeed the best procedure.

BJD :anakinpod

 

[db8us]

BJD, i agree on the airplane stuff !
But, nobody would immediatly assume a heart-attack in air-plane crashes.
Nobody would ask Boing to be the only one investigating a
Boing-737 accident.
Nobody gives anything about the loss of money if a report is published.
It is only to prevent further accidents !
Just a few minutes from here a Bonanza crashed and they had no problem saying that the pilot forgot to switch tanks.

Also years ago when the Airbus went past the end of the runway due to "intelligent-software-and-electronic-freak-stuff" they finally put in new software and a manual override for the reverser.
So what ?

In real life there are really all sorts of errors. Be it the guy that wants to safe 5bucks and re-use scrubber or the ne who is not plugging in a stage...
But it should NOT BE COVERED up !
The worst cover-up-dudes are the one related to the business, like IT or the manufacturer.
The sentence about "Garrett beeing to stupid to disconnect a hose" was done by a Ambientpressurediving dude working at a booth und was given with witnesses standing near by !


I want to bring the death of Kendall up !
There was Money involved with the CIS-Lunar, so they found
a coroner who said "heart attack" and "ulcer" and later it was
found out that it was in now way a natural cause !

If you have a look at madmoles page there are "investigations going on until today" ??????

Only very rarely we ever see a real result, so we can not wait until the year 2080.

About Garrett, what was the final cause there ?

Until today there was no real explaination of the death of Max Hahn either.
Why ? Because we would either have to face a technical problem, a problem with training or procedures (like bailout-issues), or user errors, or most likely a combination of them...

I do not want to throw crap on dead people, but if their death should be worth anything, we have to learn from that, no matter what the cause was !

If an agency or producer looses money by that... so what ?

One day, if i should die during a diving-accident, i would wish to promote my stupidity (or any technical issues)to everyone, if this was the major-factor ! If one life would be saved by that it would be worth it...

Maybe breather-divers should wear a "truth-donor-card" besides their organ-donor ones...

About the Dolphin-Diver:
Was he testing a unit while teaching a class ?
On his first dive ? While beeing an ANDI-IT ?
How is ANDI promoting using the Dolphin past its max. depth ?
Is there a course for that ?
Was the student in a Dolphin-class or an OC-student ?

The other instructor last year had more luck... he turned his gas off when talking to OW-students !!!!!! and forgot
to turn it back on.. an OW-student saved his life !
But i have to agree with Tom Mount: the breathers are safe, it is always the combination with a diver that makes people die.

 

[padiscubapro]

About the Dolphin-Diver:
Was he testing a unit while teaching a class ?
On his first dive ? While beeing an ANDI-IT ?
How is ANDI promoting using the Dolphin past its max. depth ?
Is there a course for that ?
Was the student in a Dolphin-class or an OC-student ?

The other instructor last year had more luck... he turned his gas off when talking to OW-students !!!!!! and forgot
to turn it back on.. an OW-student saved his life !
But i have to agree with Tom Mount: the breathers are safe, it is always the combination with a diver that makes people die.

There are lot of issues to be clarified over the next few weeks but there will be no official statement from ANDI until all the facts have been ascertained but I have been assured there will be a response at the appropriate time (and I will post a link when its available)..

From what I hear the student had a dolphin and the instructor an atlantis (both standard units).. I don't know what the actual planned depths were only how deep the location was..

There are alot of conflicting reports on what the training really was since ANDI does not have any program for the dolphin with a depth exceeding 40m and our tech wreck program has a max depth of 44.5m.

ANDI does not endorse or have any Dolphin program that includes deco.. our manual clearly limits Dolphin use to 40m no deco no exceptions.

ANDI did have a deco program for an experimental DOLPHIN 80 that was a trimix unit and was being tested and taught by 2 ANDI ITS that worked for Drager in Germany.

Let us be patient and wait to get reports and evidence from everyone involved.. Speculation doesn't do anyone any good..

 

[db8us]

Ok, i will do that...no problem ! I will fly to Hongkong and Oz for a month anyway and will be back around the end of April
Hope to do some fun dives....

 

[-BlueHole-]

Sentite condoglianze

 

[DrMike]

Any news about the dead ANDI-IT with his rebreather in Subic-bay from this week ?
Let me guess.... heart-attack ?

db8us (or anyone else who has any info),

Is there any factual basis in your implied point that a rebreather caused death can present itself as a heart attack?

Im not in denial - I just want to know. Pressumably you (db8us) have the facts or can point me in the right direction.

 

[caveseeker7]

Is there any factual basis in your implied point that a rebreather caused death can present itself as a heart attack?

... Pressumably you (db8us) have the facts or can point me in the right direction.

Mike,

Michael is off diving in Australia for a while. He needed a vacation, all that diving is exhausting.

I'm taking a wild guess, but the answer to your first question is probably 'no'.
I agree with finns that it was likely just a cynical statement venting some of his frustration about the lack of solid info we're getting out of all RB accidents.
(The only exception that I can think of was the EDO-04 fatality in Germany, where the state police investigators actually put pictures of the rig and its failing parts on the alert page of their website. Between those, the lack of training and experience, and the accident happening in very shallow water on a solo dive it was easy to come to conclusions - even here, the final report wasn't published as far as I know ... :frown2: )

 

[madmole]

I've kept to the sidelines on this at the moment. but would make a few points

1) In all the incidents I've looked into I've seen no attempt yet by any party to cover up stuff. I would expose such a cover up if I believed it to be true. I have met many who believe this does accur though
2) I have seen known facts reported differently by different parties sometimes with widely different interpretations
3) Many of the incidents have been solo dives and hence there are by definiton no witnesses, in some cases even no bodies and very few facts. We may just never know why in these cases
4) Many parties seem to have hidden agenda's, and some of course would prefer some versions to be accepted over others
5) I think ALL parties want the truth, however painful it may be
6) No RB or diver is perfect we can all make mistakes

Personally I would like the following
a) A formally agreed Rebreather incident reporting structure
b) An agreed Team or panel in each area to collate the reported data and liase with coroners and relations. They should include manufacturers and instructors and those accepted to be wise in RB ways
c) Formal reporting of aquired actual data and any conclusions to be drawn to the RB world
d) RB with electronics to include some logging as a "black box" solution
e) Patience from folks while incidence data is collated and analysed

I know nothing about the Dreager incident and am unwilling to comment on it. However the Luca case is very interesting and I suspect there will be a lot more shouting and finger pointing. I think the one thing that will become clear though is that none of those fingers will be pointing to APD and the Inspiration and this will not be an Inspiration fatailty per se if what folks are reporting to me is true

There are many claims in the Luca case but certain facts do stand clear and there are clear cut lessons to be learnt

1) Dont dive solo on an RB (yet again)
2) Always know your PO2 (yet again), and you DO require PO2 meter(s) to do this
3) Be very very careful when you modify equipment. Do not do so unless you are FULLY aware of the possible effects it can have and understand that a modified RB is not to be trusted one inch (nor should any RB if you ask me, and please ignore the fact that ALL but the scrubber of my Molespiration is non standard)
4) When testing modifications, check them out in living room and pool first, with standby personel and divers in case it doesn't work as you intended or were led to believe. Test, test and test agin until you are certain and then still do not trust it
5) You are NOT superman. No matter how many times you've tried it or practiced and experianced it, you CAN NOT guarantee you will recognise, Hypo/hyper/capnia situation and react to it. Take along someone who can, ie a buddy

 

[fins wake]

Personally I would like the following
a) A formally agreed Rebreather incident reporting structure
b) An agreed Team or panel in each area to collate the reported data and liase with coroners and relations. They should include manufacturers and instructors and those accepted to be wise in RB ways
c) Formal reporting of aquired actual data and any conclusions to be drawn to the RB world
d) RB with electronics to include some logging as a "black box" solution
e) Patience from folks while incidence data is collated and analysed

These are all excellent points. Perhaps IANTD, TDI, IART, ANDI and RAB could agree on the above with the big RB manufacturers? It's in everybody's interest to avoid erroneous speculation if the truth can be had.

Good post, Stephen.