Why dive Deep Air?
- Thread starter TMHeimer
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adm3745
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Are you talking about their Recreational Trimix? I emailed Tom Johnson asking about it and he reccomended I just wait to take the Trimix 1 course.
jpbutler
Registered
I've done the same dive (roughly 100ft, give or take) on both nitrox and 30/30. I was shocked at how much I had missed on 32%. I've also had plenty of reef dives in the 100ft range. When I dove to 150 on 21/35 the first time, I was amazed a how vibrant everything looked. It really makes a difference, try it
Hey, I can't afford to use 30% helium on a dive to 130 feet let alone 100 feet. Even if I could afford it, I wouldn't use that much on such a shallow dive. I realize you are using some kind of standard mixes that you are taught in a GUI or IUD course. I see the logic behind it but its just not my cup of tea.
JPB
elmer fudd
Contributor
I'm pretty comfortable down to 110' and I'll dive down to 130' with caution, but I'm not really crazy about going beyond that. One of the nasty effects of narcosis that I sometimes get is paranoia verging on panic, (just an irrational feeling of impending doom). I've always been able to keep my head and ascend 20-30' where it goes away, but it's definitely not cool.
Now that's diving in Puget Sound, where the water temps are in the 40's, 20' of visibility is excellent and it's always dark past about 80'. If I were diving in the tropics in a 3 mil suit with 200' of visibility, then I imagine that I would feel much more relaxed and I might consider going deeper.
Now that's diving in Puget Sound, where the water temps are in the 40's, 20' of visibility is excellent and it's always dark past about 80'. If I were diving in the tropics in a 3 mil suit with 200' of visibility, then I imagine that I would feel much more relaxed and I might consider going deeper.
I had a very interesting experience in the Red Sea last October. I dove the same wreck three times -- twice on Nitrox, and once on mix. The first dive, I remember thinking that the wreck wasn't very interesting, because there was no color on it at all. That was at 100 feet, on 32%.
The second dive was much deeper, on mix, and I was stunned by the riot of color and life that was EVERYWHERE. I wondered if it was just a different time of day or different light (although I carry a 21W HID, so I have my own light down there). But I did the third dive at almost the same time, on 32%, and the wreck was dull and drab again.
That was the experience that really brought home to me how much narcosis affects my brain even now, when I don't feel paranoid or stupid any more.
The second dive was much deeper, on mix, and I was stunned by the riot of color and life that was EVERYWHERE. I wondered if it was just a different time of day or different light (although I carry a 21W HID, so I have my own light down there). But I did the third dive at almost the same time, on 32%, and the wreck was dull and drab again.
That was the experience that really brought home to me how much narcosis affects my brain even now, when I don't feel paranoid or stupid any more.
EGad
Contributor
I don't know if there's been any tests on the issue, or even any experience on the matter as all of my diving so far has been snorkeling and very shallow, but I'm wondering if there is any link between narcosis and hypoxia. Does anyone know if they've done any testing to see if there are any links between the two? (I'm not even sure how such a test would be done.) I have some time in altitude chambers and noticed that the symptoms of hypoxia and narcosis are fairly similar. I know that one of the most impressive symptoms of hypoxia I had in the chamber was loss of color vision. I was fairly impaired with manageable symptoms in the chamber at about 30-40k feet with narcosis like symptoms, but the most dramatic thing was the color issue. We gained altitude fairly slowly (along the lines of 1k ft/min, which would be a fairly fast climb.) The symptoms came on fairly slowly, so we tended not to notice them until we were fairly impaired with narc-like symptoms.
But what TSandM said really got me thinking. As her posts tend to do (thank you for that.) When we were at altitude and getting a feel for what the symptoms of hypoxia are and how they affect you (as they seem to affect different people differently at different times) in an attempt to recognize when you are impaired and troubleshoot your aircraft or descend as possible. One of the most striking issues that I didn't even notice as they came on was a loss of color vision. When you are at altitude and displaying enough of the symptoms (I think it was 3 symptoms and you're done whether you like it or not) we were instructed to go on 100% O2 with the quickdon masks we had. (Note, this will not work for testing nitrogen narcosis for obvious reasons.) We were all issued slates that had along the top, an array of color swatches somewhat similar to the old TV test patterns. When I was enjoying the hypoxia and looking at the color samples they seemed desaturated and dull. Almost like primary colors mixed close to 50/50 with a medium gray. I stared at the slate when I put my quickdon on and started breathing GOX. The effect was amazing. The colors came rushing in and they were pure tones, very bright. The difference was really remarkable and totally drove home the amount that we were effected by hypoxia, even though we were able to function fairly well. I don't think that I would be too terribly impaired at that level, although I wouldn't want any novel tasks.
At any rate, has anyone ever tried inducing nitrogen narcosis and hypoxia in the same group of subjects to see if the same symptoms present themselves? I'm starting to develop a theory (that is pretty seat of the pants) that humans were meant to operate on air at close to 1 ATA and deviating considerably from that range causes similar issues at either end of the extreme. I can't help but wonder if they are related, somehow.
But what TSandM said really got me thinking. As her posts tend to do (thank you for that.) When we were at altitude and getting a feel for what the symptoms of hypoxia are and how they affect you (as they seem to affect different people differently at different times) in an attempt to recognize when you are impaired and troubleshoot your aircraft or descend as possible. One of the most striking issues that I didn't even notice as they came on was a loss of color vision. When you are at altitude and displaying enough of the symptoms (I think it was 3 symptoms and you're done whether you like it or not) we were instructed to go on 100% O2 with the quickdon masks we had. (Note, this will not work for testing nitrogen narcosis for obvious reasons.) We were all issued slates that had along the top, an array of color swatches somewhat similar to the old TV test patterns. When I was enjoying the hypoxia and looking at the color samples they seemed desaturated and dull. Almost like primary colors mixed close to 50/50 with a medium gray. I stared at the slate when I put my quickdon on and started breathing GOX. The effect was amazing. The colors came rushing in and they were pure tones, very bright. The difference was really remarkable and totally drove home the amount that we were effected by hypoxia, even though we were able to function fairly well. I don't think that I would be too terribly impaired at that level, although I wouldn't want any novel tasks.
At any rate, has anyone ever tried inducing nitrogen narcosis and hypoxia in the same group of subjects to see if the same symptoms present themselves? I'm starting to develop a theory (that is pretty seat of the pants) that humans were meant to operate on air at close to 1 ATA and deviating considerably from that range causes similar issues at either end of the extreme. I can't help but wonder if they are related, somehow.
I quick little story of diving air 30 years ago. Keep in mind I do not condone diving deep on air if there are other options, but also remember deep is a relative term.
I once worked as a dive guide in Hawaii in 1980 - 1989; there were not a lot of rules or knowledge for that matter then
early on we simply used a Hawaiian backpack to hold our tank, this was a metal clamp device that fit over your shoulder, no BCD, we did not have an octopus or many of the other things like computers etc. we memorized the dive tables because we did not plan in advance how deep we would limit ourselves to....60/60, 70/50, 80/40.... Etc.
We dove Molokini every day when there were only two other dive boats going there, and we dove the back side as often as possible which is a shear wall which goes down to 360 feet.
Being young and enjoying having a bit of a buzz on we would do a dive just to get narced. beings that we were doing a couple 100 foot plus dives every day with tourist, then afternoon dives and then maybe a course, then after work or after a night out at the Sheraton disco a 2am dive for lobster. Needless to say we were doing a lot of diving daily and our tolerance was building.
so back to chasing the narc as we called it, we were going deeper and deeper to get good and narced, we would laugh at the other guy who was worse off than us, there were a lot of antics, once we had a girlfriend at around two hunderds who had really long hair and an octopus landed on her head and started attacking her head, we were totally narced out and trippin on this it was like some kind of fun drug that there was no hang over or anything as soon as you surfaced.
Well the deepest we ever went was 240, and it was not to say we went that deep it was because thats what it took to get us euphoric. Once we where cruising with this giant manta ray at somewhere around 200 - 220 it was like flying in outer space on an alien space ship.
Anyways I only pass this on as a story of diving deep, not smart, we were young, and looking for fun...narcosis is probably what kept our little group of divers from ever doing drugs or drinking to the point of toxicity....
I always used a mantra "Bubbles mean up, bubbles mean up, bubbles mean up" I would repeat this over and over in my head, and on more than one occasion I wasnt sure what it meant or why I was saying it, I just followed the bubbles until I understood
This all sounds so crazy now...but it is what it is
I once worked as a dive guide in Hawaii in 1980 - 1989; there were not a lot of rules or knowledge for that matter then
early on we simply used a Hawaiian backpack to hold our tank, this was a metal clamp device that fit over your shoulder, no BCD, we did not have an octopus or many of the other things like computers etc. we memorized the dive tables because we did not plan in advance how deep we would limit ourselves to....60/60, 70/50, 80/40.... Etc.
We dove Molokini every day when there were only two other dive boats going there, and we dove the back side as often as possible which is a shear wall which goes down to 360 feet.
Being young and enjoying having a bit of a buzz on we would do a dive just to get narced. beings that we were doing a couple 100 foot plus dives every day with tourist, then afternoon dives and then maybe a course, then after work or after a night out at the Sheraton disco a 2am dive for lobster. Needless to say we were doing a lot of diving daily and our tolerance was building.
so back to chasing the narc as we called it, we were going deeper and deeper to get good and narced, we would laugh at the other guy who was worse off than us, there were a lot of antics, once we had a girlfriend at around two hunderds who had really long hair and an octopus landed on her head and started attacking her head, we were totally narced out and trippin on this it was like some kind of fun drug that there was no hang over or anything as soon as you surfaced.
Well the deepest we ever went was 240, and it was not to say we went that deep it was because thats what it took to get us euphoric. Once we where cruising with this giant manta ray at somewhere around 200 - 220 it was like flying in outer space on an alien space ship.
Anyways I only pass this on as a story of diving deep, not smart, we were young, and looking for fun...narcosis is probably what kept our little group of divers from ever doing drugs or drinking to the point of toxicity....
I always used a mantra "Bubbles mean up, bubbles mean up, bubbles mean up" I would repeat this over and over in my head, and on more than one occasion I wasnt sure what it meant or why I was saying it, I just followed the bubbles until I understood
This all sounds so crazy now...but it is what it is
Blackwood
Contributor
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