Do we need instructors?

[DCBC]

Actually the only liability that a shop has is with respect to the quality of the air. They are though, by checking C-cards, actually increasing their liability. If liability were the real issue they should never, ever, check C-cards.

Thal I was speaking about diver training (imagine actually talking about the OPs question).

 

[I Dive]

Actually the only liability that a shop has is with respect to the quality of the air. They are though, by checking C-cards, actually increasing their liability. If liability were the real issue they should never, ever, check C-cards.

I've been thinking a bit about this. I certainly see your point. But in reality, I think a dive Op is damned if they do and damned if they don't. We live in a society where everything is someone else's fault. If someone has a diving accident, all it takes is the right (wrong?) attorney to get ahold of the case and they will twist anything and everything. If you checked a C-card before selling air, you told that person they would be safe using it and they weren't, therefore pay up. If you didn't check a C-card, then you are negligent for selling a dangerous product without verifying the person was qualified to use it. In the end, right and wrong will not matter once bit. It will likely be cheapest for the Insurance company to settle out of court. But, then, they have paid out money on a policy and will therefore either increase the premium or cancel the policy and add a nasty gram to the dive Op's insurance history so their next insurance company will charge them an arm and a leg for insurance. If any attorneys are reading this, they are certainly welcome to dispute this based on letter of the law, precedent, or whatever as I am certainly no legal expert. But you really don't need to be an attorney in this country to know how lawsuits and insurance claims generally turn out...

 

[DCBC]

I was paraphrasing "A majority opinion in favor of instructors being ousted and replaced by mentors".

Perhaps you're seeing something in these posts that I'm not seeing Leapfrog. I don't think that anyone has said that diver education through mentorship is preferable to Instructor led education in all circumstances.

No one is taking the attitude that professional diving Instructors are never necessary. They are of course necessary because most non-divers don't know a mentor and/or the liability issue may make it a requirement. The OPs question was focused on a world that doesn't exist (in North America anyway); assuming liability was not an issue.

I have met several non-instructors and Instructors (who just haven't kept-up teaching status) that would do an excellent job of mentoring and instructing others. Some of these would do a much better job than many of the active Instructors today.

This is not a slight to you or I. Because an Instructor has an ability to teach properly doesn't mean that s/he (when confronted by the time tables of the LDS) accomplishes the job properly.

You don't teach to minimum standards for a reason. I'll suggest that the reason WHY you don't, is that if you did, you would feel that the training was inadequate. I would agree totally with you; it may well be.

If an Instructor teaches to the minimums, this doesn't automatically translate to safe diver training. I for one don't believe that I can teach a student to dive better within 50 hours of training, than a mentor who may or may not have my knowledge and instructional ability (perhaps more), if that mentor invested twice the time with the student (for example). Assuming a good mentor, there is little doubt in my mind that the end result may be superior to the training I would give the student.

This doesn't mean I'm a crap instructor, it just means that there is likely a person out there who is knowledgeable and experienced enough, who given adequate time, can do a better job than I can do in a finite time period.

The Instructor has an advantage in many instances in-that s/he has an established degree of knowledge, has proven a degree of in-water competence and has convinced someone that they can teach. The mentor's knowledge is a wild card; but because it's not known, it doesn't mean that their skills are automatically seen as less than an Instructor's.

The other point is that over the years, the minimum standards that allow an Instructor to be certified have decreased. We have agreed that the diver standards are insufficient (requiring us not to teach to minimums). Instructor standards are also insufficient. That does not mean that the Instructor is insufficient, but s/he could be.

This is why I would encourage any diver to speak with a friend who's a diver and whom s/he trusts to help with the selection of a diving educator. I believe that a good portion of new divers today have been trained poorly.

If the standards continue to decline in the future, it will likely be difficult to find an Instructor who is knowledgeable enough to know how to buddy-breath. Similarly today it's difficult to find an instructor who's capable of swimming 150 feet underwater (unaided by mask and fins), able to breath off SCUBA without a regulator, do a doff and don (blacked-out under high harassment), or be able to even pass a 1970's Instructor's exam. These and other minimum skills are no longer necessary and are only distant memories. Some may say who cares, but when looking at the minimum competence of today's diver, I would have to say; I do.

 

[theduckguru]

I've been thinking a bit about this. I certainly see your point. But in reality, I think a dive Op is damned if they do and damned if they don't. We live in a society where everything is someone else's fault. If someone has a diving accident, all it takes is the right (wrong?) attorney to get ahold of the case and they will twist anything and everything. If you checked a C-card before selling air, you told that person they would be safe using it and they weren't, therefore pay up. If you didn't check a C-card, then you are negligent for selling a dangerous product without verifying the person was qualified to use it. In the end, right and wrong will not matter once bit. It will likely be cheapest for the Insurance company to settle out of court. But, then, they have paid out money on a policy and will therefore either increase the premium or cancel the policy and add a nasty gram to the dive Op's insurance history so their next insurance company will charge them an arm and a leg for insurance. If any attorneys are reading this, they are certainly welcome to dispute this based on letter of the law, precedent, or whatever as I am certainly no legal expert. But you really don't need to be an attorney in this country to know how lawsuits and insurance claims generally turn out...

A tank of compressed air is no more dangerous than a can of gasoline, so I don't see the you sold him a dangerous product arguement. The more likely arguement is going to be you rented him defective equipment.

 

[I Dive]

A tank of compressed air is no more dangerous than a can of gasoline, so I don't see the you sold him a dangerous product arguement. The more likely arguement is going to be you rented him defective equipment.

A SCUBA tank doesn't need to be defective for a diving accident to occur. Once it does, I have a very hard time believing an Attorney would not use the dangerous equipment spin to get some $. Do I consider a SCUBA tank dangerous? Of course not! But I'm not the money hungry, ruthless Attorney representing the Bozo who bent himself and is looking for a huge payday...

 

[leapfrog]

DCBC,

Let's face it. We're seeing the same wornout discussions over and over again on Scubaboard. Sweeping generalizations: armchair dive gurus, PADI is Satan, Instructors are a bunch of junk, I only have 40 dives but I know it all, in the old days eveything was better now it's load of baloney, please buy this piece of equipment because I use it, so it's the very best in the world, etc, etc... I could go on for ages.

Whatever, it's a public, free, medium and SB has probably done more for diving than many other forums, associations or whatever over the last five years. My criticisms about the Board would be that occasionally moderators are not always impartial, it's often dominated by the same people and I think there are still many divers who either don't visit the Board or who are afraid to post.

On the subject of this particular thread, as you read through it, the growing argument in favor of mentorship is based on the tenet that the level of instruction is too low.

When this comes from people like yourself or Thal, it's a considered opinion that I can either agree or disagree with.

It's also an argument for improving the level of instruction, not for doing away with instructors.

We talk far too much about the "mill" instructors who at the end of the day are young people and aren't going to be working as instructors for more than three years anyway.

I have still yet to see a thread supporting those of us who work almost 7 days a week, work long hours, are underpaid, are criticised for being members of a world recognised instructors' organisation and are used as a punching ball on Scubaboard.

So I have decided to take a stand.

I am not going to put up with people who are rude or who on a thread called "Are Instructors Necessary?" attack me for speaking as an instructor, not as "just a diver".

I'm not going to put up with people who, when they don't like my answers, tell me to get off my "self important soapbox".

It is very worrying that senior, experienced, dive instructors are jumping on a bandwagon saying that most instructors are useless.

It's also even more worrying that when challenged, they hit the ball out of the stadium by saying "actually, its not the instructors' fault, it's the agency."

In fact the word agency is also beginning to irritate me, because I belong to an Association, not an agency.

It's this frequent use of euphemisms to belittle and undignify the profession that riles me.

There are interesting things happening in the world of dive instruction. GUE, UTD, RAID.... I still know little about them, but from what I have read so far, it looks like a step in the right direction. What we need to do now is support formal training, demand a higher level of instructor candidate, explain to the entry level diver how and where to find the best level of instruction and explain to them WHY. For the record, some of those instructors are also members of my Association and they do a great job helping people to conquer their fears and live their dreams.

The evidence supports the importance of professional diving instructors as the way "the world learns to dive". [Last year about 900,000 newly certified divers.]

 

[I Dive]

DCBC,

Let's face it. We're seeing the same wornout discussions over and over again on Scubaboard. Sweeping generalizations: armchair dive gurus, PADI is Satan, Instructors are a bunch of junk, I only have 40 dives but I know it all, in the old days eveything was better now it's load of baloney, please buy this piece of equipment because I use it, so it's the very best in the world, etc, etc... I could go on for ages.

Whatever, it's a public, free, medium and SB has probably done more for diving than many other forums, associations or whatever over the last five years. My criticisms about the Board would be that occasionally moderators are not always impartial, it's often dominated by the same people and I think there are still many divers who either don't visit the Board or who are afraid to post.

On the subject of this particular thread, as you read through it, the growing argument in favor of mentorship is based on the tenet that the level of instruction is too low.

When this comes from people like yourself or Thal, it's a considered opinion that I can either agree or disagree with.

It's also an argument for improving the level of instruction, not for doing away with instructors.

We talk far too much about the "mill" instructors who at the end of the day are young people and aren't going to be working as instructors for more than three years anyway.

I have still yet to see a thread supporting those of us who work almost 7 days a week, work long hours, are underpaid, are criticised for being members of a world recognised instructors' organisation and are used as a punching ball on Scubaboard.

So I have decided to take a stand.

I am not going to put up with people who are rude or who on a thread called "Are Instructors Necessary?" attack me for speaking as an instructor, not as "just a diver".

I'm not going to put up with people who, when they don't like my answers, tell me to get off my "self important soapbox".

It is very worrying that senior, experienced, dive instructors are jumping on a bandwagon saying that most instructors are useless.

It's also even more worrying that when challenged, they hit the ball out of the stadium by saying "actually, its not the instructors' fault, it's the agency."

In fact the word agency is also beginning to irritate me, because I belong to an Association, not an agency.

It's this frequent use of euphemisms to belittle and undignify the profession that riles me.

There are interesting things happening in the world of dive instruction. GUE, UTD, RAID.... I still know little about them, but from what I have read so far, it looks like a step in the right direction. What we need to do now is support formal training, demand a higher level of instructor candidate, explain to the entry level diver how and where to find the best level of instruction and explain to them WHY. For the record, some of those instructors are also members of my Association and they do a great job helping people to conquer their fears and live their dreams.

The evidence supports the importance of professional diving instructors as the way "the world learns to dive". [Last year about 900,000 newly certified divers.]

I agree, you just have to learn how to take SB with a grain of salt. There is some great info provided and some great posters. There is also a bunch of garbage posted and total morons that are members. There is no doubt many SB members are a combination of non-divers, children, adults with no lives and/or very miserable lives, and drunks and drug addicts. That's the only explanation for a lot of the posts. I've met some great people from SB and I wouldn't change that for anything. I have a few aweseome dive buddies and personal friends as a result of this website. Just don't take it to literally or personally.

 

[Paladin]

Let me toss something out here.

The government takes over the responsibility for the certification (or "licensing", if you will) of SCUBA divers. For training, the prospective student diver has the option of choosing an experienced mentor or professional instructor. A written test is issued for a "learner's permit" that would serve for either path. As a condition for receiving the permit, the student must sign a notarized liability waiver that protects his teacher, whomever that might be. After training, the student reports to a government licensed facility (could be, and probably would be, a dive shop or other professional training facility) for practical testing. As the entire process would be under government regulations, the liability level would be no more than it is for driver training. You can't sue the state for issuing a driver's license to a driver that causes an accident and you couldn't sue the state for issuing a c-card to a diver who has one.

Just a thought.

I Dive,
You are right, of course, about the lawyers and their uncanny ability to find a reason for a lawsuit, even when none actually exists. That is why, in my little flight of fancy above, I included the provision about the waiver.

I would like to clarify something here: I do not in any way advocate the total extinction of professional instructors. As you noted, not everyone is acquainted with an experienced diver who can act as a mentor from whom they can learn the basic art and science of SCUBA. Even if they do know a diver, that diver may not want to take on the responsibility of training a newbie. That said, I also believe that the option of being trained in basic SCUBA by an experienced, safety-minded diver should be allowed. A mentor, as you noted, can take as much time as he or she feels is required to instill the proper skills and mindset in his or her pupil. The professional must try to do the best he or she can in a ridiculously short period of time. Economically speaking, no instructor can devote weeks or months to individual students, unless the fee schedule is modified to work on an hourly basis, as used in flight instruction. Then the cost to the student would be prohibitive.

So why not adopt the option of allowing experienced divers to mentor a new diver in SCUBA basics up to the OW level? I am sure there would still be more than enough work to keep the professionals busy, especially in the more advanced arenas.

 

[Web Monkey]

I have still yet to see a thread supporting those of us who work almost 7 days a week, work long hours, are underpaid, are criticised for being members of a world recognised instructors' organisation and are used as a punching ball on Scubaboard.

So I have decided to take a stand.

I am not going to put up with people who are rude or who on a thread called "Are Instructors Necessary?" attack me for speaking as an instructor, not as "just a diver".

I'm not going to put up with people who, when they don't like my answers, tell me to get off my "self important soapbox".

It is very worrying that senior, experienced, dive instructors are jumping on a bandwagon saying that most instructors are useless.

There's no way to know if "most" instructors are useless any more than you can tell if "most" OW divers are just waiting for their moment in the A&I forum.

The problem is that exactly like with OW cards, there's no way to know if the person holding an instructor card has the wisdom of Yoda and can part the waters using only the powers of his mind, or is teaching because he had $3000 left on a credit card and couldn't find a job. It's the same OWI card.

This one, I will drop right at the agency's doorstep (not just PADI, but pretty much any big RSTC agency). There's a big push to move divers through all the classes, then to DM and OWI. I beleive all the professional certs should be by invitation only and that the instructor trainer should be required to hire the student for at least a year on successful completion of the class.

Terry

 

[I Dive]

that the instructor trainer should be required to hire the student for at least a year on successful completion of the class.

Terry

What if the Instructor Trainer doesn't have any need to hire an Instructor? If your answer is, "Then I guess there isn't a need for an Instructor candidate", then what about a person who wants to become an Instructor and then work somewhere other than where they currently live? Or wants to be an Independent Instructor? Or wants to open their own dive shop? I like the invite-only thing but I feel your hiring requirement is good in theory but not in practice. I think I get your point-a person is less likely to grant someone an Instructor card if that person will then directly work for them for awhile, representing their business, but I don't feel it's practical. Maybe a similar step would be better, but this actual idea I don't think will work.