Opinions sought from LDS owners

[ShakaZulu]

There is no need for private classes....save your money for gear.

 

[Dockmaster]

Talk to the dive shop and tell them your grand plan. The shop that I help out at will make a special deal for parent/kid packages on group lessons, and I bet most would work out a price on a semi-private lesson as well. If you are going to buy your gear from them as well, this will help sweeten the deal for them on the lessons.

Find out how many students are in their "group" lessons and how many staff they have with each group. You might find that their next class will have five students (inc. both you and your daughter) and will have an instructor, a DM, and a DM candidate helping. That's a great instructor/staff ratio.

Remember, private or semi-private lessons do not guarantee success. I've seen parents get pissed at their kids for whatever reason as well as kids flipping out because they feel that the parent is riding them too hard. I've also seen instructors helping one student more that the other which lead to one person getting it and the other missing something important.

 

[Tom725]

It appears most of the comments are not from LDS owners as requested. For a short while I managed a dive store. For what it is worth here is my opinion.

A dive shop, if it is to be successful in the long term, needs to be a Dive Center not a shop. It needs to be a center of diving activity in the area it is located. It should offer not only diving lessons and equipment but dive opportunities both local and dive travel. It should also offer information on local diving and on popular destinations.

The cost of the classes may be related to the what is included. For example; we though it important to include a copy of the PADI DVD with every class so the cost included a copy of the DVD. The student could then use the DVD to review if they did not dive for awhile. The cost is also related to the quality of the class. Many dive shops are under financial pressure to rush the class and not take the time to make sure every diver is truly ready.

As an Instructor I am not a big fan of private lessons. SCUBA is a social sport and I find that learning in a group situation can not only be more fun but it creates a built in support group. It is helpful to see others struggling with buoyancy and other skills and not just watch the instructor who seems to control his/her automatically.

RE: asking for discounts, it never hurts to ask but many dive shops are reluctant to give someone a break because as I said it is a social sport and the word tends to get out that the dive center gives special deals. It is a flood gate many cannot afford to open.

One last comment re: certifying 12 year olds, before I take on a twelve year old I ALWAYS do a try SCUBA session with then to find out if they can handle the equipment and if they listen to the instructor. I have told many parents their son/daughter is not ready. The parents do not always agree but I will not teach someone I do not think is ready bacause of size or maturity.

 

[scubafanatic]

There is no need for private classes....save your money for gear.

...I too am wondering about the need for private classes ? ...unless one or more of you is 'special ed' ? ...maybe see if they offer a 'Discover Scuba' freebie class, and if both of you survive that OK, we can likely rule out the 'special ed' factor and you both can just go through the 'normal' class ? Costs for BOW are just barely the tip of the iceberg of scuba costs, and if you are this price-sensitive so soon, you might want to rethink this whole scuba thing...just sayin'.

....some modest level of gear discounts come 'standard' with taking a BOW class anyway, although don't get too excited about that, as getting a 10% discount of full retail doesn't hold a candle to the 30%-40% off you can get at LeisurePro or E-Bay.

It is likely you will HAVE to buy your 'starter' personal gear at the LDS (fins/booties/mask/snorkel) .....and you can discuss a package deal/discount on that with the LDS.....the bigger ticket stuff (BC/regs/computers) becomes the next question.....afterall, what's to stop you from double-crossong the LDS, making a 'deal' for a discount on all that...IF, and that's a big IF,......you actually buy those items from them ? If you don't buy from the LDS, you've scr*wed him/her out of expected profits.

...additionally, you are on track to cost yourself a TON of money as I'm predicting you will buy a 'clueless newbie starter gear set X 2', by limiting yourself to whatever gear brands/types are at that LDS.....afterall, you've made a 'contract' with that LDS to buy from them, no matter what......without the experience/knowledge base to really know what you are doing...which comes from actually diving out in the real world, and seeing/talking to what other experienced divers are out there using.

 

[Web Monkey]

My daughter and I are going to sign up for OW training with a local LDS. The normal rates are $250 group and $475 private. I'm planning on booking a "semi-private" for the 2 of us as a group.

I'd suggest reading Walter's Sticky: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ng/287780-how-find-excellent-scuba-class.html

A private class isn't necessary, although a small class is nice. What you're looking for is more time in class, not necessarily the undivided attention of the instructor.

For example, 7 or 8 weeks of one class/week will give you a chance to digest what you've learned, think about it, then come back the next week and maybe do things differently or a little better.

Having the undivided attention of an instructor for a single weekend may sound great, but it's not really all that useful for learning to dive and being comfortable in the water.

Ideally what you're looking for is a small class (4 students is great, 5 or 6 is OK), where the answer to the question "How long does it take for me to get certified?" is "As long as it takes for you to learn the skills and be really comfortable in the water."

Terry

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And don't limit yourself to a shop. Many independent instructors offer good deals since they may not have the overhead of a shop. They will also be looking out for your best interests when it comes to buying gear. Why should you buy a 600 dollar coldwater reg when all you would be doing is warm water on vacation and a reg half as much will work just fine. Find an instructor who will put your needs, wants, interests, and yes means to pay for those, before the interests of a shop.

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

Hmmmm...I must be missing something here in how we run our business! We run our programs for one fee, include everything, and don't change it or cancel a class even if only one student signs up. It's all about customer service - if the customer is really only available Sunday mornings, who are we to argue? Sure we'll train you, and no we won't charge a premium.

Do you need to make money from every transaction, every class, every sale? Some shop owners or instructors think you do, while others, who may fall under the "wiser business owner" category, recognize that your business plan should be based on an amortization of costs over a period of time, divided by a number of students over that same time. If you have a big class, you have surplus funding for costs....if it is a small class, then you dip into that funding. At the end of the year, or whatever period you choose, it should all work out.

If you are already running your class schedule, and you have some additional students who wish to take a class privately or just amongst themselves, then do you need to buy another compressor or more BCD's, etc? No, you you've already covered those expenses in your plan, so this extra class is a bonus to you, and even if you incur some extra pool costs or other expenses, they are offset by the amortized costs that you don't have to factor in - hence the class should be no worse than a wash, if not more profitable than a "normal" class.

Does the student need to buy gear from us? No, but they will, cause we are competively priced, offer a huge selection, and run that side of the business as it's own entity, not requiring premium-priced sales to students to support it. Besides, everything you need for your certification class is included in our class fee anyhow, so there is no need to rush into purchasing things. Heck, you're not a diver yet, and have minimal personal experience with gear choices or configurations to base your decision. Dive first, buy later - you'll make a better buying decision indeed.

I continue to be amazed at how out of sync so many shops are in the customer service department....oh well....better for us!

 

[PvtStash]

Do you need to make money from every transaction, every class, every sale? Some shop owners or instructors think you do, while others, who may fall under the "wiser business owner" category, recognize that your business plan should be based on an amortization of costs over a period of time, divided by a number of students over that same time. If you have a big class, you have surplus funding for costs....if it is a small class, then you dip into that funding. At the end of the year, or whatever period you choose, it should all work out.

If your going to develope a long-term relationship with your new client you dont want them to think that every time they come see you its gonna cost them money. I think they'll start making reasons to Not come see you (or only when they Really need you); whereas a shop such as Indian Valley makes the new diver/client feel like an Insider, a Diver.... and then guess what? he Wants to come into the store... he'll start thinking of reasons to come to the store and spend money he doesnt have...

or at least thats been my experience...

 

[oly5050user]

My daughter and I are going to sign up for OW training with a local LDS. The normal rates are $250 group and $475 private. I'm planning on booking a "semi-private" for the 2 of us as a group.

As LDS owners I am interested in your opinion of the following:

Since we're not going to actually have individual instructors and schedules I thought that it would be fair to approach the LDS owner and ask that we not pay the full $950 for two private lessons and pay full price for any gear we might buy or that we pay the full $950 and get some sort of discount on gear.

My point is that I do want to support my LDS, and understand that they have to cover their overheads beyond the internet stores, and that they provide a benefit ,etc,. I want to start and keep our relationship positively but I also want to save myself some dive money without being a ______. I guess you can tell that I already think that what I propose sounds fair - to both. What's your opinion?
Feel free to answer via PM if you wish your view to remain private.
Thanks

ps
Please folks, (and this is addressed to people who are not business owners) I'm NOT interested in replies of "let them earn my money"..."sink or swim", etc.

mods - sorry if this in in the wrong place...if so, please move

Speaking as a former LDS owner /manager,now a full time instructor:
We charge $600. for a private one on one class..if there are 2 people then it is $500.each..Normal fee for group ranges from $199. to $239-$269. depends on what schedule chose. The customer names the schedule,any time any day or night for classroom and pool..That is for classroom and pool only..Training dives cost more $..The customer is paying for the convience of the scheduling and private instruction.Cost to facility to run a private class is more because of pool time/instructor time is not shared with a group.We also only offer private class schedule to young students (under 12) as to not disrupt others in a more formal class setting.We also offer to the parent and or guardian of the child to take the class in this type of situation at no charge.If purchasing a full equipment package(exposure suit/bcd/regulator/gauges-computer) ,yes, something can be done on the price.
For the people who tell students to take lessons at the LDS but buy gear online;go ahead that is your freedom of choice,but when the cost to take a ow course is $200. more than what is now currently being charged at most locations or only offered on a private basis-at the private price please do not complain.It is a business and has to be profitable to survive.If not then LDS will close and it diving will generally be less accessible to the general public. Years ago I had a customer that HAD to be done by a certain date.I generously offered him the class,at regular group rate-$250.,just for him,to meet his desires.During the first classroom session he tells me that he is not buying ANYTHING from us,no mask,fins,snorkel,boots NOTHING.Expected us to include it in class.After explaining that it is personal gear and required he still refused and wanted to reschedule so that he can go online and purchase said items,after we sized him for it.I gave him back his class fee and told him we cannot train him..As for how often I teach a private class at the rate I stated-alot.More private class request this year than in the past two years combined..Usually have at least 1 going a week.This week alone we have 4 and I start another private one on Monday.

 

[Scubadude729]

Speaking as a former LDS owner /manager,now a full time instructor:
We charge $600. for a private one on one class..if there are 2 people then it is $500.each..Normal fee for group ranges from $199. to $239-$269. depends on what schedule chose. The customer names the schedule,any time any day or night for classroom and pool..That is for classroom and pool only..Training dives cost more $..The customer is paying for the convience of the scheduling and private instruction.Cost to facility to run a private class is more because of pool time/instructor time is not shared with a group.We also only offer private class schedule to young students (under 12) as to not disrupt others in a more formal class setting.We also offer to the parent and or guardian of the child to take the class in this type of situation at no charge.If purchasing a full equipment package(exposure suit/bcd/regulator/gauges-computer) ,yes, something can be done on the price.
For the people who tell students to take lessons at the LDS but buy gear online;go ahead that is your freedom of choice,but when the cost to take a ow course is $200. more than what is now currently being charged at most locations or only offered on a private basis-at the private price please do not complain.It is a business and has to be profitable to survive.If not then LDS will close and it diving will generally be less accessible to the general public. Years ago I had a customer that HAD to be done by a certain date.I generously offered him the class,at regular group rate-$250.,just for him,to meet his desires.During the first classroom session he tells me that he is not buying ANYTHING from us,no mask,fins,snorkel,boots NOTHING.Expected us to include it in class.After explaining that it is personal gear and required he still refused and wanted to reschedule so that he can go online and purchase said items,after we sized him for it.I gave him back his class fee and told him we cannot train him..As for how often I teach a private class at the rate I stated-alot.More private class request this year than in the past two years combined..Usually have at least 1 going a week.This week alone we have 4 and I start another private one on Monday.

So you will be more profitable from losing a customer than trying to accommodate them? So lets see, you lost training, the immediate and future training for him, any recommendations he made to anyone he knows(both training and gear), any future gear purchases on gear or gas fills, money if you run a charter(this may not apply since he may be a vacation diver, but still possible). Did you offer to match prices or anything, if the prices are so much different that he would not even consider buying from your store, than I think that the prices in your store are the problem.

And $600 dollars for a private lesson, you have to be joking, a $400 mark up from normal to private? That seems quite unreasonable. I wish your business good luck, you'll need it if you can't adapt to the changing times.