PADI Wreck dive course

[David Watson]

Just google penetration

haha, thanks buddy, that entertained me for a few hours.

"Discussing emergency procedure; reviewing line procedures; independent air source" et. al., but it is a whole entirely different matter if they aren't included in the skill portion of the class. For example, do they train for no vis exit? Do they teach the proper propulsion techniques? What do they mean by "independent redundant air source ( are they OK with a Spare Air)? Are doubles required? Are they discussed? Did they teach the failure points? Do they teach the proper procedures to follow if there is a reg or manifold failure? What about lights, primary and back-up? What about light communication? What about team position?"

What about an appropriate gas to use? Can you take this class and not be nitrox certified? Are they going to take these people down to the Yukon on air? However much I like feeling completely stoned while I'm trying to navigate through an overhead environment, I'll leave the intoxicated penetrations for after the dive.

David

 

[MikeFerrara]

MHK,

To save space and I'll skip the quoting and just say that the answer to all the questions you asked on your post is "no".

Except for the spare-air thing. since no redindant supply is required, a spare air (or nothing at all) would meet standards.

 

[Don Wray]

First off, let's start with the "Rule of Thirds" If that is in fact what they offer for open ocean wreck penetrations then someone seriously needs to talk to them. This is woefully inadequate and if followed will likely kill someone.

My other issues is that it is one thing to write a CYA mention of:

"Discussing emergency procedure; reviewing line procedures; independent air source" et. al., but it is a whole entirely different matter if they aren't included in the skill portion of the class. For example, do they train for no vis exit? Do they teach the proper propulsion techniques? What do they mean by "independent redundant air source ( are they OK with a Spare Air)? Are doubles required? Are they discussed? Did they teach the failure points? Do they teach the proper procedures to follow if there is a reg or manifold failure? What about lights, primary and back-up? What about light communication? What about team position?

It's one thing to write a few paragraphs about things that are important, but it is entirely different to be placed under stress and hold trim, position,and bouyancy. Are back-up masks required? Did anyone in any of these classes actually try to run a dive using Rule of Thirds and then exit in no vis and see if 1/3rd's was adequate? Did anyone ever consider the fault of the rule of thirds in connection with the open ocean?

There are so many critical ommissions from this progam that to call it a "wreck diving" class is disingenuos at best, and false and misleading on so many levels.

Anyone that takes a "wreck specialty" of this magnitude should be well advised that most material aspects of wreck diving or ommitted from the program so it's hardly worth taking the class.

This isn't meant as a slam on PADI inasmuch as it is a true evaluation of the critical skills that are required inside a wreck, and in the abscence of those tools someone may very well get hurt.

Regards

I wrote a small portion of the manual confirming Mike's assertion that there must be something in the student manual regarding the rule of thirds being mentioned. I found it in the student manual for him. The wreck diving course is not intended for full penetration of wrecks but limited to within the area with visible exits. It does recommend sculling rather than flutter kicking to avoid siltation. Many of the questions you ask are in there for instruction but I'm not going to type the entire manual to answer them. There is no mention of "team" period, but buddy is mentioned frequently. Yes, many people have the impression that this class prepares them for full penetration, but this is frequently emphasized during the class that this class in no way prepares them for that. If someone wants a full penetration course, I recommend the check out Global Underwater Explorers or full cave from someone. What this class does though is give the student some idea of what should be considered versus just going somewhere to dive a wreck and some DM taking them into the wreck and the diver doesn't even know how dangerous what he is doing is.

 

[MHK]

haha, thanks buddy, that entertained me for a few hours.



What about an appropriate gas to use? Can you take this class and not be nitrox certified? Are they going to take these people down to the Yukon on air? However much I like feeling completely stoned while I'm trying to navigate through an overhead environment, I'll leave the intoxicated penetrations for after the dive.

David

From what I can tell entire discussions about proper gas selection, proper gas management, proper ascent rate strategies, proper gear considerations etc. etc. are all left for other courses. The more I read about this class the more I fear about it.

 

[Hinalo]

Thanks Christian, I appreciate the pointer.

 

[MHK]

The wreck diving course is not intended for full penetration of wrecks but limited to within the area with visible exits.

This is a prime example of why you can't teach some part of what is important, you must either teach everything or don't bother teaching it at all. Without proper technique "visible exits" quickly become invisible exits and sadly for some they won't realize how inadequate the training they received was until it is too late. You can't be partially pregnant and you certainly can't teach a partial wreck diving class just to introduce what wreck diving is about and get someone excited about it in the hopes they take additional, more robust classes from a different agency. It's that kind of approach and mentality that will get someone hurt.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's that kind of approach and mentality that will get someone hurt.

Correction...Has gotten people hurt.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

The PADI Wreck Specialty can be a decent course with a good instructor who goes well beyond the standards. In my wreck class (with Duane Johnson, ppo2_diver), we spent alot of time on gas planning (rock bottom), reel use, SMB deployment, no mask "exercises" and very limited penetration. It is not a wreck penetration course. I wouldn't consider doing penetration dives any more now than before the class. IMO that requires a course focused on wreck penetration like the one TDI offers through many instructors. There are several good ones up here on the Great Lakes, but I unfortunately can't help you with regard to San Diego.

 

[MHK]

The PADI Wreck Specialty can be a decent course with a good instructor who goes well beyond the standards.

Doesn't it strike you as strange that in order to teach a decent course your instructor was forced to break the standards by in fact going "well beyond the standards"? BTW, as a side note, I know Duane and he is a great instructor so this isn't meant as a criticism of him, inasmuch as it speaks to the larger issue.

As an agency you shouldn't be in a position to certify students in an overhead environment, while at the same time paying very limited lip service to the very dangers that the environment provides. Suggesting that the diver stay within the "visible" exit is laughable when you consider that poor propulsion techniques, or poor trim, or sloppy gear configurations, just to name a few, can very easily silt out any "visible" exit. Without a complete understanding and training of the complexities associated with wreck diving, the course as it is offered should never be acceptable. If you can't handle all the contingencies associated with overhead environments then you shouldn't go into one. Getting some token training coupled with a few words of caution in a CYA knowledge review is incomplete and dangerous training. The totality of the environment doesn't change by warning a diver to stay within the "visible" exit since many of the variables associated with potentially disturbing the visibility aren't adequately addressed, nor or they adequately demonstrated and taught.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The PADI Wreck Specialty can be a decent course with a good instructor who goes well beyond the standards.

It isn't really a PADI class then is it?

In my wreck class (with Duane Johnson, ppo2_diver), we spent alot of time on gas planning (rock bottom), reel use, SMB deployment, no mask "exercises" and very limited penetration.

Not a single one of those skills is a required part of a PADI wreck diver specialty. What about your hang tank? LOL

It is not a wreck penetration course.

Yes it is.

I wouldn't consider doing penetration dives any more now than before the class. IMO that requires a course focused on wreck penetration like the one TDI offers through many instructors. There are several good ones up here on the Great Lakes, but I unfortunately can't help you with regard to San Diego.

I've gone through this about 100 times. If we just compare this class to a cavern course we get an idea of what is missing. Just about any cavern course requires propulsion and trim related skills, line drills on land and in OW, no mask/ no vis air sharing ect, ect.

This "wreck" course which states essentially the same penetration limits requires none of those skills.

Rather than just cut down PADI, which I really enjoy, let me clue you in on something else. A PADI instructor who has certified 25 students and documents a few dives on wrecks AND sends in a check can be certified to teach this class. I'm telling you that I was teaching this class before I had any overhead training or experience (aside from the ice diving course). As an instructor, I didn't have a clue. When I got a clue, I was no longer willing to put my name alongside PADI's on such a card. Further, while I am cave trained and do some wreck diving including some penetration, I can't think of anything that really qualifies me to teach it. I hope you get this. I'm telling you that I may not really be qualified to teach wreck diving but there are divers who have wreck cards with my signiture on them. The instructors are being sold an even bigger bridge than the students and many of them don't know any better than the students. I really hope the students that I certified when I was a PADI instructor stay the HELL out of wrecks.

Why do so many people want to make excuses for agencies like this and completely let them off the hook?