Goliath groupers

[Missdirected]

if you remember last summer tampa bay was inundated w/ red tide and when we went out on the boat all you saw were dead fish floating on the surface, it was very sad....

what's even sadder is so many places that still have grouper on their menu's...exp when the grouper is on the endangeared species list w/ the panda

Yes, I remember; hence, why I was asking if they don't think that has had a serious impact. I am not a biologist or anything but from my lil point of view, the last few years have been awful but again I have no training in this area.

 

[Walter]

I have a question - don't any of you think all this red tide we have been dealing with has had an effect on fish populations?? I'm being serious here, so forgive me if I sound naive.

As for this area, we have some. I certainly would not say that we have an abundance.

Yes, it has an impact, especially inshore in shallow water. In deeper water where we usually find Jewfish, the impact is much less. We have lots of Jewfish in this area.

what's even sadder is so many places that still have grouper on their menu's...exp when the grouper is on the endangeared species list w/ the panda

There are no endangered species on the menu. There are many different species of grouper. Some are not doing well, they are not on the menu. Others are more plentiful and are on the menu.

 

[Rocha]

Re Pain: Yes, fish do feel it, they have the same pain receptors as most other animals. If you want to learn more about the subject, check this:

http://www.nofishing.net/FishFeelPain.asp

Re Red Tide: The red tides in florida a caused by extremely high numbers of a dinoflagellate (Karenia brevis), which is poisonous, that's why so many fish and other animals die, they cannot avoid eating or breathing this poisonous microscopic organism. For more info about it check here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_tide

 

[Rocha]

There are no endangered species on the menu. There are many different species of grouper. Some are not doing well, they are not on the menu. Others are more plentiful and are on the menu.

While you are right that there are no endangered species on the menu, there is plenty of evidence showing that commercial fishing is having a tremendous impact and drastically reducing the populations of *all* grouper and snapper species in the entire Caribbean (including Florida).

I think the only non-endangered species of grouper that is doing well in Florida is the Gag grouper, but you never know what is in your plate as they usually label it as only "grouper". For this reason I am trying to avoid groupers, snappers (and reef fish in general) when I go to restaurants. The present practices of reef fish extraction are not sustainable at all.

Here is a very nice guide for "environmentally friendly" sea food, notice that groupers are on the list to avoid:

http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/SeafoodWatch/web/sfw_regional.aspx?region_id=5

The list above is specifically for the southeastern US, but there is a drop down menu where you can change regions. Here is the general website:

http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp

Luiz

 

[Missdirected]

Yes, it has an impact, especially inshore in shallow water. In deeper water where we usually find Jewfish, the impact is much less. We have lots of Jewfish in this area.

.

Yes, I did some research last night after I posted this. During some of the worst outbreaks of that stuff (Rocha lists the proper name) has killed Goliaths and Manatees, among the other animals we commonly hear of like sea turtles :11: I think I read five manatees were killed one year, but don't quote me on that. I'd have to go back and look to be sure.

It seemed though they had a lot of footage of dead fish, no one could say exactly how bad or not the fish populations had been hurt, w/ the exception of trout. Seemed most research was done on economic impact.

 

[Walter]

Yes, Jewfish are killed by red tide, I've seen them floating, but it hasn't seemed to affect the overall populations off shore Fort Myers.

There is no doubt that red tide and other algae blooms are horrible and are killing lots of things in the Gulf. We can expect it to get worse unless we take drastic measures. We need to stop planting things that need chemicals to grown in our sand. Eliminate golf courses and restore the natural water flow. That means we have to fill in the canal that connects the Caloosahatchee to Okeechobee and tear down the dikes around the lake to let the water flow natually into the Everglades.

 

[Missdirected]

Yes, Jewfish are killed by red tide, I've seen them floating, but it hasn't seemed to affect the overall populations off shore Fort Myers.

There is no doubt that red tide and other algae blooms are horrible and are killing lots of things in the Gulf. We can expect it to get worse unless we take drastic measures. We need to stop planting things that need chemicals to grown in our sand. Eliminate golf courses and restore the natural water flow. That means we have to fill in the canal that connects the Caloosahatchee to Okeechobee and tear down the dikes around the lake to let the water flow natually into the Everglades.

Walter, that is one thing mentioned in some of the stuff I was looking at last night - a good circulation of water.

 

[FredT]

There are several folks over on Spearboard that are trying to find cause/effect on the recent red tide blooms off the Tampa area. One "smoking gun" seems to point toward the phosphate mining industry, and a few sites in specific and Fla EPA decisions that were "less than optimal." There are HUGE problems there that need to be corrected, but agricultural chemicals and sewage treatment are not home free.

The solution to ag chem/ sewage issues can be twofold. The first is to stop or severely restrict the use of agricultural chemicals and replace ag chem use on large irrigated tracts with tertiary treated sewage where the distribution piping or distribution canal construction is relatively cost effective. Pumping treated sewage inland is one option to keep the sugar industry viable without the $ cost of ag chems, plus you get some nutrient filtration out of the deal. This will eliminate one bloom food source, and drastically reduce another. The other solution is to enhance and expand the marshes for natural cleanup of the water going offshore. The 'glades is a huge nutrient bio-filter, So were the mangroves removed for condo construction and sea grass beds in the back bays.

Sewage and rain runoff of any sort is a nutrient source. Anything done to reduce those sources is a good thing as far as reducing red tide is concerned. Increased marsh area is also good as expanded marine nursery habitat.

Not harvesting fish is a treatment of the symptom, better to solve the actual problems and get healthy reefs and marshes back!

Of course there is the alternative method of a few class 5 'canes walking up each coast and driving the snowbirds and other non-hardcore Floridians either underground or north of I-20 again, but the cost in lives there will be rather extravagant. Of course we would get a huge amount of lobster habitat and new reef structure out of the wreckage, but there has to be a better way to do that too.

FT

 

[Oceana Diver]

There are several folks over on Spearboard that are trying to find cause/effect on the recent red tide blooms off the Tampa area. One "smoking gun" seems to point toward the phosphate mining industry, and a few sites in specific and Fla EPA decisions that were "less than optimal." There are HUGE problems there that need to be corrected, but agricultural chemicals and sewage treatment are not home free.

The solution to ag chem/ sewage issues can be twofold. The first is to stop or severely restrict the use of agricultural chemicals and replace ag chem use on large irrigated tracts with tertiary treated sewage where the distribution piping or distribution canal construction is relatively cost effective. Pumping treated sewage inland is one option to keep the sugar industry viable without the $ cost of ag chems, plus you get some nutrient filtration out of the deal. This will eliminate one bloom food source, and drastically reduce another. The other solution is to enhance and expand the marshes for natural cleanup of the water going offshore. The 'glades is a huge nutrient bio-filter, So were the mangroves removed for condo construction and sea grass beds in the back bays.

FT

I'm not contesting the Everglades' role in filtering nutrients, but consider that the acreage of Glades, mangroves and seagrass are much less than they once were (before we started carving them up), and the nutrients levels they must filter are unnaturally high.

Best as I remember, nitrogen and phosphorus both contribute to algae blooms, and unfortunately, the Everglades Restoration Plan only addresses one of those nutrients. The idea was that by lowering the levels of one nutrient (let's say nitrogen), the occurrence and intensity of algae blooms could be lessened. That might actually work, at least until water not regulated for nitrogen from other sources, like the Mississippi River*, mixes with Everglades water high in phosphorus, and then you still get algae blooms. That was one of the many criticisms I heard about the ERP. Algae blooms aside, factor in that the high-phosphorus water leaving the Everglades flows into Fla Bay and through the Keys (and their corals, which don't respond well to nutrients).

*There are plans for a Louisiana/Miss River Restoration, by the way. And there are efforts focused on a holistic, watershed approach to restoring the Mississippi, the Gulf, the Everglades, and the Caribbean.

 

[FredT]

I've seen the plans for the MS river marshland restoration. I expect it to be fully implemented right after Bill Clinton campaigns for and votes a straight Libertarian ticket. Too much money is involved for too few direct single issue votes, even if it is an excellent idea and good for the entire country's economy.

FT