To those considering an OW class...

[Ann Marie]

I'm sorry Jerry if you felt some sort of offense. I certainly didn't mean that. My post was done tongue in cheek. That is sometimes the trouble with the internet, things are often taken the wrong way. I am sorry that you felt my post was in some way made to be mean and needed to reply in that way.

As I said in the beginning of my post, I totally agree with the earlier posts. I would love to teach a longer course and in that way produce better divers. I don't teach the weekend course, by the way.

I was just trying to make the point that most people tend to take more than one type of class before they well versed in that skill.

When you were five and started skiing, did your parents just push you off the top of a hill or did they show you how to ski. Perhaps it wasn't a typical class, but didn't someone gave you a lesson?

If I didn't feel that my students would be comfortable and confident diving in similar conditions in which they were taught, I would not sign off on their c-card. They would be doing additional dives with me. I'm not an instructor that believes in or teaches those two day courses.

 

[jbichsel]

That, in my mind, is where the silliness of the "economic" argument reveals itself. Assuming your anecdotal evidence is true (and my anecdotal experience is similar), the shorter classes actually contribute to diver attrition. The LDS is actually losing a member of the sport (and the associated revenue) because they aren't giving students enough tools to properly enjoy the sport.

Longer classes and more stringent standards are likely to ensure that divers are confident, safe divers who actually enjoy the diving they do, meaning that they are more likely to come back for more training, more gear, etc.

Just my opinion.

Exactly my point. If we were held to standards that guaranteed student diver to emerge for OW certification being well trained, competant, capable, proficient, able to handle crisis situations, the enjoyment would be instantaneous AND lasting.

As it is, the joy is instantaneous, but with a sense of trepidation that is either lurking behind or emerges at that first dive after cerification.

More time needs to be spent on tables, theory, DCS, buoyancy, trim, proper ascents and descents, dive planning, gas management, real OoA procedures and how to prevent OoA situations, buddy contact, hand signals.

Five CW dives and 4 OW dives do not a diver make, IMHO. That's about half or less than half of what I think we should require.

 

[dherbman]

Scheduling and expense is the #1 reason I hear for people not taking classes. Sure, you'll have more keepers by upping the standards, but there won't be enough people signing up in the first place to support the industry.

We have difficulty in getting some students to complete a 6 class/6 pool session/6 dive OW course that takes one month to complete( 2 classes per week for 3 weeks and two days of checkouts). People already whine about paying $300 for OW certification and in any given session, there is usually at least one missing student.

 

[Stormbringer]

Back in the day I got certified, my OW class was 4 weeks long 3 days a week (MWF)divided into a 1.5hr class room lecture followed by the remaining 2hrs in the pool with 5 Open Water dives at a local area lake. I thought it was a great and thorough intro to SCUBA diving and could honestly see that it could be longer and cover more necessary info. I can't for the life of me see that certifying anyone in these new ultra short 2-day classes are worth much - locally thay are happening along with very shallow water OW checkout dives in a shallow local river (8-11ft depth). I don't think such undertraining benefits the new divers in any way save giving them a false sense of security at best and set many of them up for trouble at worst.

 

[Dive 'N' Dolphin]

Scheduling and expense are the #1 reason for people not taking classes. Sure, you'll have more keepers by upping the standards, but there won't be enough people signing up in the first place to support the industry.

We have difficulty in getting some students to complete a 6 class/6 pool session/6 dive OW course that takes one month to complete( 2 classes per week for 3 weeks and two days of checkouts). People already whine about paying $300 for OW certification and in any given session, there is usually at least one missing student.

This is pretty much what the National Geographic class is. we had 6 pool classes that lasted 4 hours each. 6 total dives. 2 lake and 4 ocean. 1 dive in ocean was just on boyancy. I wish it was at least 2 more weeks and got a little more in detail. Our instructor kept saying its ok if its not perfect. I dont expect you to get it the first time. Just get the concept so you can practice. That's the problem with the short classes is you dont get it down but just get a quick previews. We had a great instructor. Said we could call him any time or crash in on future classes if we want something.

Stacy

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Scheduling and expense is the #1 reason I hear for people not taking classes. Sure, you'll have more keepers by upping the standards, but there won't be enough people signing up in the first place to support the industry.

We have difficulty in getting some students to complete a 6 class/6 pool session/6 dive OW course that takes one month to complete( 2 classes per week for 3 weeks and two days of checkouts). People already whine about paying $300 for OW certification and in any given session, there is usually at least one missing student.

So the solution is crank them out faster? That just doesn't seam right to me, I know its a buisness like any other and dive shop owners need to make a living but at some point the industry, as agencies and such need to step up and take responsibility for a lot of these deaths and damage to reefs.

I hate to say it but maybe part of the problem is a bloated industry, does a city need 14 dive shops? I don't want anyone to go under, but if we are running the scuba industry artificially hot due to the crank em out as fast as we can concept, maybe as a whole it all needs to be re examined, yea maybe there wouldn't be enough people to support the dive industry - as it is.

 

[dherbman]

So the solution is crank them out faster? That just doesn't seam right to me, I know its a buisness like any other and dive shop owners need to make a living but at some point the industry, as agencies and such need to step up and take responsibility for a lot of these deaths and damage to reefs.

I hate to say it but maybe part of the problem is a bloated industry, does a city need 14 dive shops? I don't want anyone to go under, but if we are running the scuba industry artificially hot due to the crank em out as fast as we can concept, maybe as a whole it all needs to be re examined, yea maybe there wouldn't be enough people to support the dive industry - as it is.

Are you willing to pay the price? The cost will be more than just higher course fees. Gear selection will be reduced as manufacturers go under and those remaining will be forced to jack their prices up to cover the reduction in volume.

For me, the answer is providing the best instruction possible in the time I have. It also includes emphasizing that this is a starting point, not the end. Maintaining contact with students after class and providing encouragement to continue diving and learning is another means by which OW divers can gain skill. That's my plan. As for the industry as a whole, damned if I know.

I agree that the situation is bad, but the solution is not so simple as upping the standards.

 

[jbichsel]

I'm sorry Jerry if you felt some sort of offense. I certainly didn't mean that. My post was done tongue in cheek. That is sometimes the trouble with the internet, things are often taken the wrong way. I am sorry that you felt my post was in some way made to be mean and needed to reply in that way.

As I said in the beginning of my post, I totally agree with the first post. I would love to teach a longer course and in that way produce better divers.

I was just trying to make the point that most people tend to take more than one type of class before they well versed in that skill.

When you were five and started skiing, did your parents just push you off the top of a hill or did they show you how to ski. Perhaps it wasn't a typical class, but didn't someone gave you a lesson?

If I didn't feel that my students would be comfortable and confident diving in similar conditions in which they were taught, I would not sign off on their c-card. They would be doing additional dives with me.

Anne Marie, sorry I missed the tongue in cheek. My monitor is acting up. I apologize for getting wound up. I've been battling with PADI the last week on some issues relating to this topic and it's frustrating.

When I learned to ski, a friend of the family gave me the skis, boots, poles for Christmas. My Mom has never skied (bad knees), father abandoned us before I was born. Mom took me to the local ski area, tried to show me what she had learned from some friends by asking questions. Off down the bunny hill I went. I'm a bit bull headed when it comes to something I want to do, so I never looked back. Started watching people and doing what they did. Joined ski clubs in school and started hanging with guys older than me that skied better than me. Broke some skis but never any bones.

Anyway, I think the point we are trying to make is that, yes, there are those of us that take the standards (minimums) and try to elevate them. The problem lies in that the standards are low enough that the percentage of instructor that are only interested in pushing the herd through so the next herd cam come in, DO NOT take it to a higher level, and the standards allow that to be acceptable.

One of my long conversations with PADI lasst week, partially involved the term "mastery". I pointed out that the term is subjective and open to each instructors interpretation. The PADI official agreed that that is a problem. "Mastery" can mean a significantly different level of competancy to different people.

I've seen instructors whose skills are so poor I thought they should not be allowed in a bathtub unsupervised. To lead a group of Adventure Divers on the Deep Dive while everyone is crawling, instructor included, along the bottom, taking visibility from 20' to <2' behind them, then crawl back up the wall, instructor included, is not what I call "mastery". I confronted the instructors boss, with the instructor standing there with mud from wrist to elbow and ankle to mid-thigh. (I did this after their debrief, away from their students and in a calm, professional manner). I was told that the instructor had passed his IE so evidently PADI felt he was capable and I should mind my own business. Since I was only a DM at the time, I obviously had no clue what I was talking about.

Any way. Hope we are buds again and sorry for getting testy.

 

[Ann Marie]

No problemo.

After my IE, I sat back and thought.....this is it??? Perhaps it was because my CD was awesome and made sure that we knew our stuff.

I always mention to my students that I have high expectations and if they want a class where they can skate through, this isn't the one.

I don't know about blaming the industry, I think the poor instructors are to blame. The standards are only as good as the person following them. I also put the blame on the consumer that feels they can get quality without putting in the time or the money.

What good instructor is paid what they are worth? I probably loose money teaching, but at least I love it! (Just bought a new digital projector)

 

[Walt1957]

From the perspective of someone still new ... I think the current OW class structure is about right to get someone into diving. By that I mean interested and capable of making a decision about being willing to commit to it or not. But now that I am addicted I wish that I had a way to accelerate my learning, and in a safe way. A REAL class. And even reading the books for the AOW classes SSI does, I have seen very little that my (excellent) instructor did not already teach, or that was not stated repeatedly here.

Being a realist, I see no hope for a better OW class standard. But a real AOW class, or should I say OW2, would be very nice. As it is I probably have much better skills than most people with 15 logged dives because for each of those I probably have another session in the pool practicing. But I know that I have so much to learn, and although reading SB posts helps it just can't substitute for good ole face time.