New level of insta-buddy trouble

[ItsBruce]

LSDeep: Stay tuned for my article on the liability of a DM who is just another diver along for the ride. ... Low risk of liability while not acting as a DM.

 

[BigJetDriver]

BJD - Don't the police have a rule that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

Does that same rule not apply to diving?

OE2X, et al,

True, it is a standard in law enforcement and jurisprudence that one is supposed to know what is legal and what is not. Because you claim you didn't know what you were doing is illegal does not excuse your behaviour. You have a duty to know what is right and wrong.

My remarks were not and are not intended to completely remove responsibility from the individual diver. A reasonable and prudent man (in the general sense) should have recalled the limits he was taught, and either passed on the dive, or levelled off above that depth while setting his own turn point limits.

(The definition of a reasonable and prudent person is "one who gets out of the shower to pee!" This, of course, lets all divers off the hook, because they not only pee in the water,
but in their own suits as well!!! :scared: )

In any case, psychological pressure is a fact of life, and divers continue to let that performance expectation pressure them into doing dives that they are not truly prepared to do! As I said, the judge was merely recognizing that fact of life.

Cheers!

Rob

 

[Web Monkey]

many pro's to dive on the lowest cert the have to make the dive possible during their vacation. beside the fact that many dc's have a tendency to give you worse buddies the more experienced you are.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

generally my preferred stores, when on holidays, are the ones that recognize my solodiver card. gimme the extra tank (other things i have myself) and keep me out of the loop. i pay for extra tank - i am not responsible for your problems to be happen. it sounds bad maybe - but nobody gives me a discount to "babysit" there less than perfect divers.

I suspect you didn't just fall out of the sky being "perfect." Everybody was new once, and everybody can use a hand from a more experienced diver. Where would you be today if everybody else refused to dive with you because you were new?

Terry

 

[all4scuba05]

maybe someday diving will be like driving. You break the "diving laws" (like running out air or diving beyond your certification) and you lose your C-card for a while. Immediate suspension.

 

[Darnold9999]

....It was a real eye opener to me to hear the number of responsible people that advocate more legal action.

Catherine, I don't think too many people were advocating more legal action, so much as worrying that there is a potential for the legal system to step in where it so far has not.

I think the reality is that the law will find that there is a duty for you as buddy to act within your skill set to aid your buddy as long as you do not endanger yourself.

However, as some have pointed out, most people will do that anyway, that is part of what being a buddy is even at the lowest skill levels.

I also think that outside of 'gross negligence' if it hits the fan if you try and fail you, as buddy, will not be found responsible.

You as "professional" will be held to a higher standard when leading a dive or attempting a rescue, but this is an inherently dangerous activity so as long as you act reasonably you will very likely be OK.

Civil law is how our society regulates itself. As someone pointed out once you get ALL the facts - not just the ones reported in the news or even the ones the judge chooses to write down most legal judgements make perfect sense. Not all, most.

We can argue about where to draw the line between an individuals responsibility for their own actions and anothers responsibility for causing harm to you but there is a line and as a society we do have to figure out where it is. The mechanism in our countries are similar - we use politicians and judges. The line moves back and forth over the years in detail, but there is always some kind of balance.

Hope you reconsider leading dives, I imagine you are good at it.

 

[RockPile]

Catherine, I don't think too many people were advocating more legal action, so much as worrying that there is a potential for the legal system to step in where it so far has not.

Hope you reconsider leading dives, I imagine you are good at it.

Well put. I 2nd.

JB

 

[Cacia]

well, I have a fundamental problem with the notion that a person shirks their own responsibility to themselves and yet holds another responsible for the mistake.

 

[RockPile]

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to but as Bruce said earlier, the diver's surviving family doesn't always understand what diving is and means even when the diver did.

That said, you're, by all accounts, a good diver. Clearly, you’re thoughtful about your responsibilities and VERY contentious (these posts of yours indicate absolutely nothing to the contrary). But then again, you don't work as a divemaster, not really. It sounds like it was more just an affirmation of your progress as a diver.

Do what makes you comfortable. If you don't want it, dump it (I pass on it). But I really don't think you're at risk.

JB

 

[wedivebc]

well, I have a fundamental problem with the notion that a person shirks their own responsibility to themselves and yet holds another responsible for the mistake.

It is not just the dive industry it is society. Used to be someone had a nasty fall, they would say "Someone call a doctor" now they say "Someone call a lawyer"
I refuse to let them win and it will not change the way I live my life.

 

[IwakuniDiver]

After spending some considerable time reviewing this topic (a good one I might add, albiet sensitive for some viewers), I thought I would chime in with my view.

Without a doubt accepting a role as a DM, the safety of your divers become your responsibility. I know that isn't really news to anyone here.

As a dive buddy, you accept some limited responsiblity in keeping your partner out of trouble. Sometimes that means keeping your prospective buddy out of the water. If for any reason I think a member of the group can not reasonably perform during a given dive, I will make sure that person does NOT get in the water. This includes, hung-over divers, overly tired divers, and especially divers that can't demonstrate basic skills.

I do firmly believe, however that the highest level of responsibility should lie between the diver him/herself and the the trainer that certified him/her. In the real world I am well aware that accepting personal responsibility for your own poor decisions is a rare thing these days but I believe it should be considered regardless. I don't need to go over this diver's poor decisions again since everyone already knows what they were but this diver should never have left the boat in the first place.

People come to his defense that he wasn't "trained" to know what his limitations were and therefore the blame lies with the DM. I will agree to that to a very limited extent but the key phrase is "wasn't trained".

I read all the time about divers complaining about inexperienced divers that went through these Cert-farms and recieved their OWA card without even being able to demonstrate the most basic of skill or even scarier, the ability to make good decisions onshore or underwater. Although the "blame" lies in part with everyone involved in the whole situation these Cert-farms should not be allowed to put people in the water at all.

Again, it's just my point of view, but I believe certification agencies like PADI, NAUI, ect. should seriously put a stop to the practice all together and prosecute the compaines that are caught doing it.