CCR2000 back in production!!!!!!!!!

[innerspace1000]

it is clear that individuals dropping opinions here are commenting on a topic and piece of equipment that they are not totally familiar with.

the new CCR2000 that I saw recently will be selling ~13,000 US base price, with optional redundant display, HUD is an option as well. Also, it is configured with DOT cylinders standard, spheres optional, and ability to run offboard DOT cyls for gas switches or redundancy.

You have obviously not seen the new version of the rig.

two other tidbits....I am aware of 2 commercial diving firms that are using the 2000 with an integrated Superlite17 in place of tethered surface-supplied ops....my understanding and experience in the commercial dive network lead me to believe that this is the growing trend, and the ADC and OSHA are addressing formal stds...I do believe that the 2000 will take this market.

as for Europe..there are over a dozen 2000's out there from an early production run...all working flawlessly.

I think you'd be surprised with the support that the new mfg is proposing to offer...plus its US based...no need to deal with shipping stuff overseas to APD.

the engineering behind the unit is amazing...been in development for 15+ years, adn has the attention of the major players to make it work in the industry....lots of $ behind this product right now. I'm gathering that this is the first time this has come up on this discussion board based on the responses out there. The launch will likely come out of the gates and surprise many.

is all the speculation true...who knows..but a dual-computer controlled CCR with several add-ons for under $15k that is going mainstream will be difficult to beat for any of the competition.

dont disagree that Meg and Prism offer good CCRs....but why havent they grabbed a significant market share???? there is no reason that inspiration be the only major player...especially considering that they are fisher-price. These guys mfg them for 800 bucks....good profit margin, so its clerly a market that has room for competition and good $ to be had...I applaud the folks behind the 2000!

if cis-lunar was so great...why did they go bankrupt after pumping 8-figs into the R & D??? plus several oxidation problems arising.....clearly havent solved everything. It is clear that the next exploration caliber rig is right around the corner, and has enough drive behind it to make it go the distance

 

[caveseeker7]

The last week was pretty boring. Thanks, guys.
But 2 vs 1 makes it hard to keep up ... got some work to do, too.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

whomever is basing a CCR purchase decision based on price should not be diving a CCR!!!!!!!!!! life support equipment, not a car to get you to work...

I covered that in my previous post. As for the car, they cause a lot more fatalities than RBs. I rather have one with airbags and abs ... .

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

most newbie inspiration divers are not aware that there are some long-term maintenance issues that must be addressed. All of the electronics and batteries are in the loop, so they get moist, and likwise the PO2 handsets are pressure fed from the head, so condensation will cause some corrosion issues.

Then they didn’t do the research they should have done. All those issues are out in the open and well known to anybody who cares to learn about it. Solutions to most of them, too.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

For sake of comparison, the CCR2000 uses all submarine wet-connects for electronics...you can literally break the unit down underwater!

So it does have a hydrophobic scrubber membrane now?
With the MK5P that has been done, by the way.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

be I believe the CCR2000 is back in production in Rhode Island and selling for $13,000US. So an inspiration with a VR3 is around 10 anyway...the 2000 is a far superior unit, not even the same league..its like comparing apples with steak, not with oranges!

At almost twice the price it better be. An Inspiration plus Hammerhead is still a lot less.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

Interesting...rumor has it that the new mfg has developed a global marketing campaign that will put a damper on inspiration, prism, and Mk16 for their respective markets...the rebreather community is in for an awakening I believe.

As you said, rumor has it. Does the rumor also have the number of instructors and supporting bases in Australia? Carribean? Maledives? Europe? Red Sea?
Or at least the US?

innerspace once bubbled...

How do you define your "Not Impressed" regarding the CCR2000....

Exactly what I wrote. I was not impressed. At the time the Inspirations in local dealer stock still went for $6500, almost two thirds less than the CCR2000 shown. Including two controllers.

innerspace once bubbled...

What critcal process did you use to determine that the Inspiration is a better choice?...CCR2000 has it hands down on design, technology, capability, saftey...

The scrubber/lung combo isn’t exactly ground braking design. Backmounted lungs have their purpose, if you NEED your chest free. Fine if you dispose of mines, or handle large camera housings etc., but they are miserable from a breathing point-of-view (No, I haven’t tried a CCR2000, only dove a KM16). What algorthms are available in the deco computer? You do have a choice I asume, including RGBM? Your choice of straight NAVY tables, Bühlmann, VPM, Pyle? You say it has the hands down on technology, after all. I did like the display, the combo of warning lights (which looked like a copy of the ones on Prisms, by the way) and cell/computer readout below. I still think that’s the best combo. I’m not sure about the readability under all conditions, you will know that better than I. Having only one display is unacceptable as I mentioned before. That is, in my book, a serious safety issue.

innerspace once bubbled...

also, it's application as you saw it was intended more for commercial/scientific application...

What commercial application uses the CCR2000 currently?

innerspace once bubbled...

So, tell me, how do you make your comparision?....What are your guidelines?...

Common sense for one (single display). Experience for another (lung postion & breathing)

innerspace once bubbled...

Just becuase Inspiration is being produced does not suggest that it is the best unit available.....

I never said it’s the best CCR, nor do I believe it is. If you take a look at the aftermarket you can see that the Inspiration can be much improved.
Hammerhead keeps the battery out of the loop, adds currently one and soon two trimix deco computers (which can be used without the HH on an OC rig, too, if needed), add an additional 4th cell space for O2 monitoring or a redudent 2nd or 3rd computer AND keeps the setpoint closer. Several OC/DSVs are available, an option I believe is a very good one if you regard safety.

But the fact that they sells very well should be a hint that they ain’t all bad. The Evolution will improve some of the Inspirations problems, and probably add a few new ones. They all have issues and/or problems. Are you saying that the CCR2000 has none? Will have none? That’s a problem with any unit that does not have a track record. You just don’t know ... . Next best thing is tracking down owners and talking to them. Sometimes you get good results, sometimes no answers or bull. That’s why I do consider the large, vocal and accessible Inspiration owner base an advantage.

I for one like both the Prism and Meg better than the stock Inspiration. I also think both can be improved from their current version.

I’m not saying the CCR2000 is a bad design or anything like that, it’s just not for me.
I have yet to see the ‘perfect’ CCR, even the one ‘perfect’ for me. If I take bits and pieces of several ones I might come pretty close. Of the CCR2000 it would be the handset layout.

 

[saturated]

Your right on the no units perfect. For the record my inspiration does'nt look like its original form any longer.

My perfect unit:

Modular (different scrubber/tank sizes for diff uses)
Controls master/slave as well as analog last ditch
Integrated trimix computer
Cis style scrubber canister (even though packing sucks)
HUD in the mask for ppo2 readings (dreaming now)
Ability to plug in various mixes to the system via one connection
(for wing, dilutent ect. Via gas block ect.)
OC/DSV Stock
Decent wing from the factory. (now im really dreaming)
Clean rigging and minimalist appearence.
PCO2 that actually measures co2 not scrubber temp
Rear mount counter lung, that breaths as easy as a over shoulder

I'm sure there a few thousand more things I would like but hit a mental block

 

[caveseeker7]

But the debate is fun. Supposed to be, too, so forgive me for stepping on your toes. Wasn't my intention.

Innerspace once bubbled...
"Why the CCR 2000 was not there"

I said that because ZeroG is pretty hard core diving. The Nemsis prototype was there, and had some problem or other. As it was not a production model on sale, that's fine by me. Certainly a good way to test any rig. Two of the old CIS-who?s were there, and diving. Three Megalodons, no problems reported.
The rest Inspirations, a dozend or so.
No Prism, no CCR2000, no MKx, no UT240 and whatever else has been build in the past or present. Too bad, I would have loved to see how both the older designs and newer ones held up ... .

 

[caveseeker7]

You summed that up nicely.
Might not be a mental block, though. I afraid actually writing out that list may have caused a short due to excessive drooling ... .

 

[caveseeker7]

innerspace1000 once bubbled...
it is clear that individuals dropping opinions here are commenting on a topic and piece of equipment that they are not totally familiar with.

You have obviously not seen the new version of the rig.

No, I have not.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

two other tidbits....I am aware of 2 commercial diving firms that are using the 2000 with an integrated Superlite17 in place of tethered surface-supplied ops....my understanding and experience in the commercial dive network lead me to believe that this is the growing trend, and the ADC and OSHA are addressing formal stds...I do believe that the 2000 will take this market.

Thanks. Should be intresting to see if the commercial industry picks up on that at large.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

as for Europe..there are over a dozen 2000's out there from an early production run...all working flawlessly.

Still, no RB can be sold there without CE. Of course people can come here, take the course and pick up a rig and take it home. But that's not much of an infra structure, or a big splash in one of the hottest RB markets.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

I think you'd be surprised with the support that the new mfg is proposing to offer...plus its US based...no need to deal with shipping stuff overseas to APD.

the engineering behind the unit is amazing...been in development for 15+ years, adn has the attention of the major players to make it work in the industry....lots of $ behind this product right now. I'm gathering that this is the first time this has come up on this discussion board based on the responses out there. The launch will likely come out of the gates and surprise many.

Proposition is good, implementation is better.
The rig was in development for a long time. And for sale on and off. Maybe that's why the reputation suffered some ... . You're right, this is the first we heard about it on this board. I wonder why they didn't suprise the world with a launch at DEMA a couple of weeks ago. The diving industry was there, and the diving world was watching. Last year Deep Outdoors suprised many with a large, beautifully made booth and large product offering ... .

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

is all the speculation true...who knows..but a dual-computer controlled CCR with several add-ons for under $15k that is going mainstream will be difficult to beat for any of the competition.

You mean the Evolution?

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

dont disagree that Meg and Prism offer good CCRs....but why havent they grabbed a significant market share???? there is no reason that inspiration be the only major player...especially considering that they are fisher-price. These guys mfg them for 800 bucks....good profit margin, so its clerly a market that has room for competition and good $ to be had...I applaud the folks behind the 2000!

The Meg is new and a start-up company. They're currently backordered for about 10 months. The Prism ... I don't know, maybe lack of good marketing?
The unit is well tested and very well build. It should sell much better than it has in the past. If Steam Machines gets it CE'd it will shut up a few people and open a new market.
For me it needs a second O2 readout, which displays all three values side-by-side, and an OC/DSV. Deco computer would be nice, but isn't mandatory.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...
if cis-lunar was so great...why did they go bankrupt after pumping 8-figs into the R & D??? plus several oxidation problems arising.....clearly havent solved everything. It is clear that the next exploration caliber rig is right around the corner, and has enough drive behind it to make it go the distance

Usually companies go down because they put too much money in and don't get enough back. The C-L was pretty well engineered and build, and probably ahead of its time. The membraned scrubber has yet to be beat. HUD and OC/DSV were standard. So was a deco computer. And a switch block. All of that cost plenty, and the price was outrageous back then. I've heard of the oxidation problem, that finish/material. Could have been changed if they kept producing.

R&D is one thing. Cost effective manufacturing another. To stay in biz you need to make a profit. We'll see how the CCR2000 fares, I certainly wish them luck. Lots of money right now doesn't necessarily mean lots of money down the road. Investors invest because they want a return on their investment.

People were expecting prices for RB to come down, not move up. Even at $13K or $15K it'll be a tough sale for any new rig without a prven record, without published test results or certification to a known and used standard.
Even if I'd be intrested I wouldn't want to be a guinnie pig, much less a paying one. So I'd wait a year or two ... and if everyone thinks the same I wonder if the money lasts.

 

[innerspace1000]

guys...good debate.

yes, different rigs for different folks/applications...no question. But no individual should be close-minded and say that any one rig is necessarily better than another without extensive experience with all the units

one key note to address.....why should anyone buy an inspiration adn then have to drop $2500 on a hammerhead to make it what they want...my point is that the new CCR2000 is ready to dive, without mods, and clearly meets all teh current and future needs of our industry.

back mounted lung makes tons of sense...for carrying stages, cameras, etc...plus its so protected that there is 0 risk of puncture. Breathing resistance is not at all an issue...dive it slightly pos pressure, and it breathes for itself....the new design solved several water trap issues as well...external pump. Plus, there are two hydrophobic membranes o either side of the scrubber..very easy to load, and wicks moisture

I am considering a series of deep dives to push the limits of teh inspiration....will be sure to bail out with my ccr2000 when **** hits the fan

 

[caveseeker7]

innerspace1000 once bubbled...
But no individual should be close-minded and say that any one rig is necessarily better than another without extensive experience with all the units

You're right, but with the conceptual differences (e.g. lung position) one rig might be out and another in before you ever try it. If you need the free chest, Meg, Prism and APDs are not options, period.
By the way, weren't you the one entering the board with the explosive announcement that the CCR2000 beats everything else? Is the best?
Did you dive APDs (including the new Evo with the new electronics), the Prism and the Meg? The MK15, 15.5 and 16? The MK5p and the Infinito?
Unless you spend time flying all of them, do you think of yourself as closed-minded?

innerspace1000 once bubbled...

one key note to address.....why should anyone buy an inspiration adn then have to drop $2500 on a hammerhead to make it what they want...my point is that the new CCR2000 is ready to dive, without mods, and clearly meets all teh current and future needs of our industry.

They shouldn't have to, but it's the only way to dive one a HH right now. One more reason why i hope that Innerspace will use the HH on their Meg, at least as a factory option. With the Megs robust build, three available scrubber sizes, ability to use the C-L's cannister (if you can find and afford one) and outboard tanks it would be a great rig.
The CCR2000 that I saw last came without a harness/BCD, so it wasn't ready to dive by the way. No problem here, neither does the Meg. But the price should reflect that. APDs and the Prism literally come with everything but absorbant.

innerspace1000 once bubbled...
Breathing resistance is not at all an issue...dive it slightly pos pressure, and it breathes for itself.... there are two hydrophobic membranes o either side of the scrubber..very easy to load, and wicks moisture

You lost me here. RB are at ambient pressure, how do you dive them at pos pressure? Even if, inhalation would be easy, exhalation that much harder.
Feel free to explain.
The moisture wicking hydrophobic membranes, too. Are we talking about the same thing? A membrane that lets gas through but keeps water out? The absorbant doesn't get flooded if the loop does?

innerspace1000 once bubbled...
I am considering a series of deep dives to push the limits of teh inspiration....will be sure to bail out with my ccr2000 when **** hits the fan

That's been tried, past 180m the buzzer will implode and flood the loop. Even warns of those kinds of depth in the Inspiration's manual. You should know better ... . I can almost see it: The Inspiration on your back, the CCR 2000 on your chest. If front mounted, are you going to dive 'slightly negative pressure' :wacko:

 

[madmole]

They miss the point. The unit has no CE cert

NO CE no market, unit is illegal for sale in whole of Europe, period!!!

So thats about 70% of the world rebreather users missing for them at startup. Good marketing, shows they really understand the RB market

Sorry guys you are not going to compete against the Inspiration until you get CE (Regardless of it being good or bad), you can have as many Navy tests and ISO9000 as you like and they wont do you any good. The US is currently a smaller market than Europe for rebreathers. Take up here is far higher

I welcome another unit, only wished half of the units out there were available to us over the other side of the pond. Would do the yellow box good to have competition, but until other units get CE its got a monopoly

Only wished folks would stop trying to put other units down with half truths and rumour. stick to facts and the good units will speak for them selves

By the way, why would APD submit a civilian only unit for US navy testing? I doubt they would. They havn't even tried to provide the Inspiration to the Royal Navy with whom they have very good contacts. They are building a separate military unit for that market. The unit looks good, the name sucks big time ("Trojan"), obviously APD dont travel to the US a lot

 

[Innerspace]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
The last week was pretty boring. Thanks, guys.
But 2 vs 1 makes it hard to keep up ... got some work to do, too.


I covered that in my previous post. As for the car, they cause a lot more fatalities than RBs. I rather have one with airbags and abs ... .

Then they didn’t do the research they should have done. All those issues are out in the open and well known to anybody who cares to learn about it. Solutions to most of them, too.

So it does have a hydrophobic scrubber membrane now?
With the MK5P that has been done, by the way.

At almost twice the price it better be. An Inspiration plus Hammerhead is still a lot less.

As you said, rumor has it. Does the rumor also have the number of instructors and supporting bases in Australia? Carribean? Maledives? Europe? Red Sea?
Or at least the US?


Exactly what I wrote. I was not impressed. At the time the Inspirations in local dealer stock still went for $6500, almost two thirds less than the CCR2000 shown. Including two controllers.

The scrubber/lung combo isn’t exactly ground braking design. Backmounted lungs have their purpose, if you NEED your chest free. Fine if you dispose of mines, or handle large camera housings etc., but they are miserable from a breathing point-of-view (No, I haven’t tried a CCR2000, only dove a KM16). What algorthms are available in the deco computer? You do have a choice I asume, including RGBM? Your choice of straight NAVY tables, Bühlmann, VPM, Pyle? You say it has the hands down on technology, after all. I did like the display, the combo of warning lights (which looked like a copy of the ones on Prisms, by the way) and cell/computer readout below. I still think that’s the best combo. I’m not sure about the readability under all conditions, you will know that better than I. Having only one display is unacceptable as I mentioned before. That is, in my book, a serious safety issue.

What commercial application uses the CCR2000 currently?

Common sense for one (single display). Experience for another (lung postion & breathing)

I never said it’s the best CCR, nor do I believe it is. If you take a look at the aftermarket you can see that the Inspiration can be much improved.
Hammerhead keeps the battery out of the loop, adds currently one and soon two trimix deco computers (which can be used without the HH on an OC rig, too, if needed), add an additional 4th cell space for O2 monitoring or a redudent 2nd or 3rd computer AND keeps the setpoint closer. Several OC/DSVs are available, an option I believe is a very good one if you regard safety.

But the fact that they sells very well should be a hint that they ain’t all bad. The Evolution will improve some of the Inspirations problems, and probably add a few new ones. They all have issues and/or problems. Are you saying that the CCR2000 has none? Will have none? That’s a problem with any unit that does not have a track record. You just don’t know ... . Next best thing is tracking down owners and talking to them. Sometimes you get good results, sometimes no answers or bull. That’s why I do consider the large, vocal and accessible Inspiration owner base an advantage.

I for one like both the Prism and Meg better than the stock Inspiration. I also think both can be improved from their current version.

I’m not saying the CCR2000 is a bad design or anything like that, it’s just not for me.
I have yet to see the ‘perfect’ CCR, even the one ‘perfect’ for me. If I take bits and pieces of several ones I might come pretty close. Of the CCR2000 it would be the handset layout.

Breaking it down... thought by thought...real fact by real fact...with a trace of personal experience/opinion based upon that.........this is how these discussion should go...and,...to all of you......in the end...we should all band together....support each other with high regard and respect and make contributions that will insure that our passion for this craft not only survives....but thrives and continues to develop and prosper......