Secondary Regulator... Do you use one?

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Now from what I am seeing here is everyone making the ASSumption that everybody make the jump over to tech-- while it does sound like this guy has interests in possibly heading that way to rule out the air II or octo+ on those premises isn't fair.

What about if someone has no plans to go beyond normal rec diving?? then how do you feel about them? and please spare me the well the DIR guys do it this way crap..... Then again I may just be a stroke and not even know it.
 
Wannabe,

Almost all of the gear configurations that technical divers use, work excellent in open water. I personally like my tech gear config (Hogarthian/DIR) for open water 100 times better then a standard open water rig. Even if I was not into cave diving, I would still be diving this same way.

What about if someone has no plans to go beyond normal rec diving?? then how do you feel about them?

I have absolutely no problem at all with them. Technical diving is not for everyone. Heck it ain't even for everyone who does it. However, simply because you are not a tech diver, does not mean you can not benefit from how tech divers dive and the gear they use.
 
The reason I ruled out the Octo+ approach has to do with reducing complexity in an emergency situation (OOA). For example, your buddy signals out of air and you hand him your primary first stage. Now you must switch to your Octo+, not too bad so far, but anytime you have to take a working regulator out of your mouth in and emergency situation increases the chances that something will go wrong and escalate the emergency.

Now to the part I really don’t like. Your buddy is breathing off your primary first stage and you’re breathing off the Octo+. You have to find the anchor line and surface safely (or float a surface marker). This is complicated first by the fact that you have to stay connected to your buddy, and more importantly, by the fact that the primary means of dumping air to control buoyancy as you ascend is in your mouth rather than above your head. At least with my BC the dump has to be at the highest point to work effectively, which is typically not my mouth.

This is in contrast to using an Octo which your buddy can grab without effecting your breathing what so ever and has no effect on the operation of your inflator / dump valve. The routing of the octo is for the most part within the routing profile of the primary so it is unlikely that anything will snag the octo cable that wouldn’t also snag the primary.

The integrated octo solution creates more potential problems than it solves.

Mike
 
I just did a search on it... Found quite a bit.

Uhhhhh... How do I put this?

Their ideas seem really terrific... There's not a diver around that wouldn't want to "simplify, streamline, and return the diver back to the center of the equation."

On the other hand, I don't see how a DIR rig is really any more simplified than a conventional rig. The biggest difference between the two seems to be where you keep and how you route your regs. Also, DIR talks a lot about using back inflate BC's, whereas conventional rigs haven't previously used back inflate BC's... Although I've known many people who use back inflate BC's on a conventional rig today.

DIR, however, seems to go heavy into making the point that DIR isn't just about your rig... It's about a complete, holistic approach to diving. They stress good health, daily exercise, and the avoidance of drugs and smoke and alcohol. All of these things are also favored by the conventionalists, and those people thinking up DIR seem to be forgetting that. It's safe to say that DIR seems to have a more emphatic focus on the subject.

I have never dived DIR... In fact, I didn't even know what it was until today. So while my opinion on the subject is a little green, I would like to communicate a newbie's first impression to those of you who are DIR.

Way back in the 1930's a man came along named "Adolf Hitler" who sold the idea of a solid work ethic, hard work, intelligent forethought, and a constant strive to improve one self and those around him to German nationalists. The idea seemed sound... The idea was to improve life as we knew it. This wasn't hard to sell to the Germans... They were ready for an econcomic revolution because of several failed monetary systems. Hitler was brutal in his strive for perfection, emphasizing "a good for all and solid teamwork" over "frivilous individualism and gagetry." As we all know, this philosophy eventually bled right down into the idea of genes... That blue eyed, blonde haired, white individuals were somehow more desired than anything else, and that other ends of the spectrum, particularly those with dark skin or of a certain nationality... Should be removed from the gene pool in order to ensure that the next generation would be more "Arian." We all know the tragedy in that thought process.

This approach of "There is but one right way, and all others should not be tolerated. Don't mess with the correct system," could be argued by a democratic society like ours here in the States that the view is a little socialistic. In an economic approach, this line of thought is known as communism. The leaders always lead "for the good of the group" or "for the safety of the team." Individual thought is chastized and discouraged.

In reading what I read today, (at http://www.dirquest.com/about_dir.shtml ) I am alarmed to see the stunning likeness of DIR's philosophies to that of communism, socialism, or even nazism.

"Those be fightin' words!" You might say. But wait... I mean no insult to DIRites. I like much of your philosophy. Since I got certified, for example, I've begun a workout regimen of aerobic exercise, I've quit smoking, and I do quite a bit with weights. Not that I was terribly out of shape before... But from the moment I got "down there," I knew that physical prowess would improve my safety margin and enjoyment of the sport. Hence, I agree with your philosophy. Also, the first thing I did was go out and buy some cool underwater toys to dive with... And I quickly found that a better dive philosophy was to have simple, well-tested, solid equipment that you could rely on, and no more and no less. DIRites will be thrilled to know that I'm considering an Apeks ATX20 rather than an ATX40 because I have a thought process of, "why would I want a control to make my breathing LESS efficient?" However, I'm also of the ilk that computers DO improve your safety margins and accuracy over bottom timers and tables, especially since you can't "nark" a computer at depth. To me, the simpler thing IS using the computer, but also knowing in your mind what to expect... In other words, a familiararity with the dive tables that you simply KNOW when what's coming from your computer isn't right. I mean, what's simpler, tking the square root of 293 in your head, or using a calculator? If simplicity is your key, DIR, then I'm with ya... But your words are sounding remarkably like some of the political statements of the Socialists, Communists, and Nazis. I'm not saying that you ARE Socialist, Communist, or Nazi... I'm just saying that your statements sound very similar to these newbie ears.

There's no question that physical fitness, streamlining and simplifying your gear, mental focus, and a complete education and understanding are the goal here... But this kind of stuff sounds REALLY close to Nazism...

We recognize that the DIR approach to equipment configuration generates the majority of interest and debate among other divers. The most common misconception is that one part of the system can be adopted, such as the equipment configuration, and others can be ignored, such as the team-centered approach or physical fitness. DIR is a holistic system and although incorporating one part of it into another system is possible, it is not DIR. It is also likely to be fraught with complications. The same is true within the equipment configuration itself. Divers who opt to make changes to any part of the equipment configuration are likely to upset the carefully arranged components that are structured to complement one another.

(Taken from http://www.dirquest.com/about_dir.shtml )

To me, the above says, "This is the right way to do this, and do not change the formula. There is one right way and all othe ways are wrong, and there is no room for personal interpretation. Do not question the system. There is but one right way."

Taken to an extreme, I can see how one day DIR divers could be instructed to "Never dive with non-DIR divers. They are simply wrong."

I know my words are inflammatory... And that this is suicide for the newbie. I do not mean to seem confrontational... I'm just stating my opinion... My IMPRESSION... Of my DIR first read.

There are many points of interest that I'd like to adopt into my personal dive regimen:

1. Stay in shape with daily high-level exercise and nutritional foods. Reduce or quit those activities which are detrimental to my health.

2. Educate myself so as to reduce risk and enjoy my sport.

3. Choose gear not based on the "ooohhh" factor, but based on quality, durability, and dependability. Minimize gear so as to have less mental loading so that situations are cleaner and simpler... A huge benefit when it comes to emergency situations.

4. Choose my dive buddy who practices similar philosophies.

5. Watch the experts and the experienced, and find little things that they do that help enforce #1-4.

Okay, so after reading that, one might think that I'm a DIR-ite. I'm not. In fact, I hadn't heard of it until it was mentioned on this board.

My point is that you don't have to be DIR to persue these philosophies. You don't have to turn your back on those who do things differently just because they do things differently. Remember, this is not a black and white issue... Different does not necessarily mean wrong. That was the mistake of the Nazis, and I see it as the mistake of DIRites.

In fact, my PADI instructor encouraged the exact same philosophies as above.

The major difference between DIR and the stuff my instructor taught me is the hose routing of the regs. Well, that and the fact that DIR says "This is the RIGHT way to do it, and accept none other." My instructor simply told me, "This is how to do it, but feel free to route the hoses as you see fit. There are no laws against routing hoses however you see best. We, however, have found this to be best..."

That said, I've looked at DIR now, and I think they've got some good ideas. I'm going to try some of them out. But their political agenda is dangerous, IMHO.
 
Your response is typical of a newbie to DIR. What you don't understand, you compare to something that is evil, ie Nazis, commie pigs, and socialist pukes. You see, the difference in DIR and all of the above is simple, you have a choice. You can be DIR, or you can not be DIR. That simple. No big debate.

DIR was adopted as a way to maintain uniformity in a group of highly skilled cave divers who were, and still are, pushing the limits to the extreme. 18,000 feet back in a cave that is 300 feet deep is no place to find out that your gear is less then optimal. This is a tried and true system that has proven it's ability to work under they most extreme conditions. It does not simply work, it works safely.

DIR is a holistic system, this is true, but if you do not wish to be DIR, you do not have to be DIR. You have that choice. Yes, it is about more than just the gear, it is about knowing your abilities, knowing your dive buddies abilities. It is about strict guidleines and teamwork. You can make your anology to Hitler all you want. I will make an anology to Vince Lombardi (yes, huge packer fan). Anyway, if Vince Lombardi would have come to Green Bay and told the players that they do not have to abide by strict guidelines for fitness, they can choose to run whatever route they want and just hope that Bart Starr could find them, that they could wear a helmet and pads only if they wanted too, do you think they would have been succesful as they were? I highly doubt it. It is the same concept as DIR. Strict guidelines dictating health, gear, mental focus, and teamwork, are what get these divers out of caves alive and safe.

DIR was not born out of the needs of recreational reef divers. It was born out of the needs of cave divers. These cave divers then brought these practices with them when they decided to make the recreational dive. They treated every dive like it was a deep long cave dive. The philosophy made sense to many, and it was then made more prominent.

Choose DIR or don't choose DIR. It is ultimately your choice.

Oh, and by the way, I am far from a pinko. I am your worst nightmare! A proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy, I am a conservative Republican!!!!!! mwuahahahahaha :wink: :D
 
Oh, and by the way, I am far from a pinko. I am your worst nightmare! A proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy, I am a conservative Republican!!!!!! mwuahahahahaha

Noooooooooo!!!!

(Just kidding.)

As far as DIR goes, I think I'll still be an unclassified diver who practices health, fitness, simplicity in equipment, education, familiararity, and understanding. And I'll probably be most attracted to other divers of the same philosophy. If that's DIR divers, then so be it. If not, then so be it.

I'm not a fan of conformity, but I understand why many experienced divers use the same equipment... And I can see the value in teamwork. I can also see the advantages in a happy medium. :D
 
Originally posted by SeaJay

who practices health, fitness, simplicity in equipment, education, familiararity, and understanding.

Just as it should be.
 
JamesK is right,

You've completely missed most of the actual content of DIR, and instead focused on its delivery. Many DIR advocates feel somewhat like it is our duty to help other divers become safer divers. We pressure people to do safety drills before each dive. We pressure people to use equipment that makes sense and has no surprises. We pressure people to train hard for the potentially dangerous activity they enjoy.

The verdict is still out as to whether or not there really is a One True Way. There are currently no competing systems, so it's really hard to tell. Maybe when full-face masks and communication gear become popular, we'll see two fully separate, equally safe alternatives.

JamesK's also right that making political analogies is automatic for most people (we deal with it all the time), but it's also very wrong. This is diving. I *might* criticize your gear selection if I think it's unsafe. I *might* criticize your technique if I think it might get you or me into trouble one day. When it's all said and done, though, I'll definitely buy you a cold one at the local brewery. This ain't about classifying people and stomping out oppression -- it's about making safer divers.

Also, I should point out that you should generally laugh at George Irvine. I have the feeling you've already come across some of his material. He's a brilliant guy, perhaps, but he's also a paranoid maniac most of the time. He's intense, but if you can wade through his pages of pointless rhetoric about The Man, you can usually find some very valuable advice on how to dive.

I seriously suggest you buy the GUE book "Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving" by JJ. It's a great intro to all of what DIR suggests, it's not threatening at all, and it's actually an entertaining read. Trust me, you'll learn a lot from it. You can take what you'd like from it.

- Warren
 

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