Scubapro vs 4th Element undergarment

[Tief*]

I have used the 4th element arctic, xerotherms and expedition for all kinds of short to long dives in the Great Lakes. They are a well made.

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Try the Arctics on - sizing seems to be on the shorter side and you might struggle with reaching your valves.

I have the X-core vest and it’s absolutely brilliant, until you start hitting 2 hours dives, then you need heating no matter what undersuit you have. I used it with Arctics and a base layer down to about 12 degrees with some light 10-15 minutes deco and it was perfect.

For your type of diving, I would go with Arctics, base layer and optional X-core and skip Xerotherm.

 

[sharko108]

Most of my diving is 10-15degC. A 30min dive with just Arctics and I'd feel cold enough that I didn't want to do any longer. I tried a Xerotherm top underneath the Arctic and to be honest it didn't do much that I could feel. I'm not a huge fan of Xerotherm. I don't think the cost is justified compared to what you get with regular fleece layers you can get somewhere like Decathlon or an outdoors shop. To be warm enough on a deco dive I really needed extra fleece layers and I ended up feeling like a balloon. I found the Arctics top to be cut very narrow and there's no stretch in it. Piling layers on underneath felt really uncomfortable. Putting the layers over the top seemed pointless. I would've had to buy extra tops that were so oversized I couldn't use them for anything else. I really wanted to like them but they just did not work for me. I also wasn't impressed by the quality either, they didn't seem very well made. I've never used the J2 but for that kind of money I wouldn't buy from 4th Element. I'd go with Patagonia's capilene base layers. Best I've owned and used them for years for winter mountaineering down to -35.

I also tried using Arctics as a base layer under a 100g thinsulate but again bulk was the issue. And buoyancy, I needed to add a decent amount of extra weight. Most of the time now I dive in a 200g thinsulate, a wicking base layer and just a cheap fleece top as a midlayer. Like I said, I can vary the midlayer for the season or the dive length without it getting uncomfortable.

10-15C is a good range of temperatures if later i'm doing some caves but ok, didn't really work for you
Actually i could try another brand for baselayer but i will in any cases , if it's a good brand probably , spend some money. Last year i was about getting Icebreaker long sleeve for a Trek but didnt do at last moment and it's about the same price (Icebreaker could be even warmer maybe) or try again decathlon but i'm effrayed now about wicking moisture capacity as my decathlon (not full) merino wasn't that good, or maybe it was because about the fleece on it, i don't know..
200g thinsulate is about same volume than arctic? I thought it was about the same as Scubapro K2 medium , which seems thicker

A critical distinction is my wicking layer was about $15 USD. But hey, if you want the J2, go for it. I don't doubt it will be warmer if you need that

I said that more in the sense that you use base layer each Time , so i'll have to get a descent one too , xerotherm might not be enough so i'll have to see if J2 or another brand like patagonia, Icebreaker or even decathlon

 

[sharko108]

Try the Arctics on - sizing seems to be on the shorter side and you might struggle with reaching your valves.

I have the X-core vest and it’s absolutely brilliant, until you start hitting 2 hours dives, then you need heating no matter what undersuit you have. I used it with Arctics and a base layer down to about 12 degrees with some light 10-15 minutes deco and it was perfect.

For your type of diving, I would go with Arctics, base layer and optional X-core and skip Xerotherm.

Yes tha'ts also what could be a problem if with 3 layers i can any longer do some valve drills . Thanks i will see about X-core . So if i skip xerotherm , if around 20C i would only use base layer and Arctic

 

[lizardland]

10-15C is a good range of temperatures if later i'm doing some caves but ok, didn't really work for you
Actually i could try another brand for baselayer but i will in any cases , if it's a good brand probably , spend some money. Last year i was about getting Icebreaker long sleeve for a Trek but didnt do at last moment and it's about the same price (Icebreaker could be even warmer maybe) or try again decathlon but i'm effrayed now about wicking moisture capacity as my decathlon (not full) merino wasn't that good, or maybe it was because about the fleece on it, i don't know..
200g thinsulate is about same volume than arctic? I thought it was about the same as Scubapro K2 medium , which seems thicker

I said that more in the sense that you use base layer each Time , so i'll have to get a descent one too , xerotherm might not be enough so i'll have to see if J2 or another brand like patagonia, Icebreaker or even decathlon

I don't really like merino. I've tried a few brands in the past and I just didn't like the texture against my skin. Took too much care to wash as well. And they stay wet longer than synthetic does if you get them damp. Walk around for half an hour in synthetics and you'll cook them dry just from body heat, you can't do that with wool. Helly Hansen used to do reasonably priced but good synthetic base layers but Jeezus they smell bad. Rab do some pretty good anti-bacterial base layers (I have their Aeon stuff but they don't make it any more, it was fantastic). Cheap BL's worked fine for diving, at least for me, as I'm not doing a lot of exertion other than getting in and out of the water. It's not like hiking or climbing where you need to get lots of sweat away from your skin. I use what I've got because I have it for other sports. If it was purely for diving then buying cheap wicking layers wouldn't bother me.

The difference between the thinsulate and the Arctics is that they tend to be looser. I found Arctics to be very close fitting, cut very narrow in the body and there's no stretch in the tops. That restricted what I could put underneath. I don't have that problem with a thinsulate.

You sound like you are sold on getting Arctics. Lots of people seem to like them. That's why I bought them. I might be an outlier in not rating them much.

 

[sharko108]

I don't really like merino. I've tried a few brands in the past and I just didn't like the texture against my skin. Took too much care to wash as well. And they stay wet longer than synthetic does if you get them damp. Walk around for half an hour in synthetics and you'll cook them dry just from body heat, you can't do that with wool. Helly Hansen used to do reasonably priced but good synthetic base layers but Jeezus they smell bad. Rab do some pretty good anti-bacterial base layers (I have their Aeon stuff but they don't make it any more, it was fantastic). Cheap BL's worked fine for diving, at least for me, as I'm not doing a lot of exertion other than getting in and out of the water. It's not like hiking or climbing where you need to get lots of sweat away from your skin. I use what I've got because I have it for other sports. If it was purely for diving then buying cheap wicking layers wouldn't bother me.

The difference between the thinsulate and the Arctics is that they tend to be looser. I found Arctics to be very close fitting, cut very narrow in the body and there's no stretch in the tops. That restricted what I could put underneath. I don't have that problem with a thinsulate.

You sound like you are sold on getting Arctics. Lots of people seem to like them. That's why I bought them. I might be an outlier in not rating them much.

I'm open to everything not Arctic at all cost but i agree that fitting could be important if its tight fit as i'm kinda muscular but not tall (1m72) so i wouldn't be surprises if with 3 layers that i feel too restricted, especially if i need to touch valves. But as someoned said , the X-Core vest could a solution
(I don't remember if i said it but but if taking Arctic it won't be the full suit , only separated part

Noted about merino . I know that cheap one of Decathlon could be bad on skin but when i tried Icebreaker ones it was really soft

I think , one thing at a Time for now best thing would be to choose which first layer probably

 

[lizardland]

i agree that fitting could be important if its tight fit as i'm kinda muscular but not tall (1m72)

I'm about 1.82 and fairly athletic as well. I find the Arctic top very narrow across the shoulders and arms. The bottoms aren't, mine are surprisingly baggy but the lower leg parts are made from a diffierent material. It's thinner but doesn't have much stretch and I find it really uncomfortable round my calfs. They've got a really high waist too and they always make me feel like Obelix when I wear them.

 

[sharko108]

I'm about 1.82 and fairly athletic as well. I find the Arctic top very narrow across the shoulders and arms. The bottoms aren't, mine are surprisingly baggy but the lower leg parts are made from a diffierent material. It's thinner but doesn't have much stretch and I find it really uncomfortable round my calfs. They've got a really high waist too and they always make me feel like Obelix when I wear them.

ok i see lol. I think yes it could be really a pain if you can't move/cross your arms because of wide back, shoulders.. especially when you have big layers . Cause yes i'm asking about Fourth Element, Arctic but maybe i'll have to drop some of those products because of the sizing . I think the high waist is on purpose no? High waist with long shirt so if you move there is no hole if you raise arms?