Training Scuba Ranch TX Diving Accident

[kammel78]

I take your point about normalisation of deviance (I also work in a job where things go bang) but equally for a big part of the world low vis is the normal. If we start making a wide-ranging ban on low vis training then everyone is going to end up training in an environment that is the polar opposite to what their local conditions are. That just seems perverse to me and as much of a failing as ploughing ahead with no thought to conditions would be.

I didn't see anyone mention a wide-ranging ban on low vis training. In fact, the comment you replied to was factually correct in that being able to see your students in OW class is a requirement, so conducting a class in visibility that prevents the instructor from seeing all students is already banned.

It's also an over-generalization to say "everyone is going to end up training in and environment...". We are talking very narrowly about OW classes. And another false dichotomy of "...polar opposite to what their local conditions are".

 

[kammel78]

But it only fine to learn in “more friendly conditions” if you just plan on only diving warm clear Caribbean conditions. Most competent instructors recommend getting certified in conditions you will normally dive.

But here's the thing (and I'm agreeing with you Doby)...I'm talking about a very specific dive site where this accident occurred in a very specific part of the country. I'd conservatively estimate that 70% of the students going through those OW classes at SR and Athens will never dive anything but blue water. Hell, 90% of the instructors from a shop I personally know only dive blue water outside of class (and most of what they do in those wouldn't even qualify as diving).

And to be clear, I'm not proposing any sort of global ban or generalizing about other areas, dive sites, etc. I'm merely contending that these sites here, with the general level of the "average" instructor that I know have no business being used for the standard OW classes.

Instructors are supposed to have certain training to teach mobility-challenged classes. Same with teaching ccr in an overhead. Should there be an instructor rating to teach classes in under 15' vis? I don't know and I couldn't guarantee it wouldn't be another pay-for-card instructor revenue stream, but I feel there have to be some steps we could take.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

I did not want to mention the diveshop associated with the incident in my OP as it was not verifiable at the time.

But, since someone else has now identified the diveshop, I would be curious as to what certification agency was involved.

I looked up the diveshop and I did not see significant mention of a certification agency identified with their training programs at the open water level. However, there is mention of NAUI at professional level courses.

ScubaToys is kinda my home LDS. They are strictly a NAUI shop. I dive their dock at Scuba Ranch. But it's been a year now since I was out there. My personal observation of their training ops in that location has been positive, particularly in comparison to my own OW course that I took in Athens. Not that Athens or SR are good venues for basic OW. Quite the opposite in my opinion.

 

[dmaziuk]

... Then another student had a problem, and the DMC attended to it, finishing just as the instructor returned. They returned to their positions, learning then that another student had died and was lying in the sand with the regulator out.

As an entirely off-topic tangent, if you have a class where ~40% of the students (3 out of 8) have "a problem" during the OW dive, your problem has nothing to do with luck.

 

[Steelyeyes]

I totally agree that such low visibility conditions shouldn’t be used for initial training or discover scuba classes. Just because thre’s nothing in the standards that totally prevents it, doesn’t mean it’s OK

But it only fine to learn in “more friendly conditions” if you just plan on only diving warm clear Caribbean conditions. Most competent instructors recommend getting certified in conditions you will normally dive. Here in the Great Lakes that’s cold & sometimes dark conditions. Which means low student to instructor ratios (like two students per instructor and no more than 4 with a 1 or 2 certified assistant.

I only really liked to ski double diamond runs but I didn't get there by taking beginner lessons in life threatening terrain. People do just fine learning skills gradually. Get the gist of the gear and the breathing underwater, clearing your mask, etc. and then add the low visibility part once the basics are comfortable. Besides the previously discussed normalization of deviance there is the overly task loading a person who has yet to develop an already unfamiliar and complex skill set.

 

[HiddenDiver]

Instructors are supposed to have certain training to teach mobility-challenged classes. Same with teaching ccr in an overhead. Should there be an instructor rating to teach classes in under 15' vis? I don't know and I couldn't guarantee it wouldn't be another pay-for-card instructor revenue stream, but I feel there have to be some steps we could take.

My opinion isn't to add another layer of certification for divers or instructors. I would imagine that shops and instructors would be smart about reducing the class size or bringing on more professionals to help with the class. It'll be easier to say... have one instructor lead the front for an experience dive and have a dive mater in the back with 3-4 students vice having 8-10 students. Adding 2 more professionals and splitting the class into 2 groups would be optimal. It's obvious that shops will continue utilizing the site for future classes, as they should. But minimizing the risk would be in everyone's interest.

Additionally, just because fatality rarely happens in OW classes doesn't mean there isn't any learnings to be had. Just like what Gareth mentioned in his reply, scuba industry isn't really equipped with the infrastructure to address these learnings. What would be nice is if we can centralize the learnings, at least locally, so that instructors, DM's, and other divers can learn from things that happened with their dive or class. For example, if vis is bad at SR and we report it as such, instructors can be better equipped to handle the environment or make the decision to change the venue to Wheeler, cancel, or shift it to Spring Lake with additional fee. If an instructor had a student panic due to poor conditions at the site and he had to bring the student up safely to the surface, they can share that info as well. We don't have to wait until bad things happen to talk about this. Matter of fact, I'm 100% positive that we'll have more good days than bad. But sharing Lessons Learned would be optimal.

What do you guys think?

 

[GLOC_The Human Diver]

“If an instructor had a student panic due to poor conditions at the site and he had to bring the student up safely to the surface, they can share that info as well. We don't have to wait until bad things happen to talk about this. Matter of fact, I'm 100% positive that we'll have more good days than bad. But sharing Lessons Learned would be optimal.

What do you guys think?”

@hidden diver, in a mature ‘safety’ culture, that’s what would happen. However, if you read my thesis (linked from the blog I referenced earlier), you’ll see that isn’t the norm. In fact, you’d likely end up such behaviours as being weaponised - “you can’t be a good instructor if your students panicked.”

You also have to have a place where such posts could be made, that people would check them, that they’ve got a plan B (and have explained that potential plan to their clients), or you’ve got the spare staff resources to use.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, far from it. Like pilots and ATC talking about weather conditions and building SA accordingly. At the same time, you’ve got an aviator’s mindset that is different to the majority of diving instructors out there. The reason aviation is as safe as it is, is because the culture and infrastructure / systems are in place to allow (encourage) information to be shared rather than kept secret.

Regards

Gareth

 

[HiddenDiver]

“If an instructor had a student panic due to poor conditions at the site and he had to bring the student up safely to the surface, they can share that info as well. We don't have to wait until bad things happen to talk about this. Matter of fact, I'm 100% positive that we'll have more good days than bad. But sharing Lessons Learned would be optimal.

What do you guys think?”

@hidden diver, in a mature ‘safety’ culture, that’s what would happen. However, if you read my thesis (linked from the blog I referenced earlier), you’ll see that isn’t the norm. In fact, you’d likely end up such behaviours as being weaponised - “you can’t be a good instructor if your students panicked.”

You also have to have a place where such posts could be made, that people would check them, that they’ve got a plan B (and have explained that potential plan to their clients), or you’ve got the spare staff resources to use.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, far from it. Like pilots and ATC talking about weather conditions and building SA accordingly. At the same time, you’ve got an aviator’s mindset that is different to the majority of diving instructors out there. The reason aviation is as safe as it is, is because the culture and infrastructure / systems are in place to allow (encourage) information to be shared rather than kept secret.

Regards

Gareth

I think utilizing the Facebook Anonymous post feature may help out. And admins can remove negative and non-constructive remarks.

Kind of drifting from the topic here:
What bothers me about divers is that they'll share stories about themselves diving and almost dying, thinking that almost dying makes them a badass diver.

 

[lizardland]

I didn't see anyone mention a wide-ranging ban on low vis training. In fact, the comment you replied to was factually correct in that being able to see your students in OW class is a requirement, so conducting a class in visibility that prevents the instructor from seeing all students is already banned.

The comment I replied to said low visibiity was a binary, go/no go choice. It isn't. All diving, and particularly OW training, needs to be informed by some kind of risk assessment, whether that's a formal process (as it is in the UK as paid instructors are treated the same as any other diving contractor) or informal doesn't really matter. Low visibility can be mitigated by any number of steps (including choosing to not dive).

It's also an over-generalization to say "everyone is going to end up training in and environment...". We are talking very narrowly about OW classes. And another false dichotomy of "...polar opposite to what their local conditions are".

I was using "everyone" in the context of "everyone who lives in areas where turbid conditions are the norm". If you want to argue over semantics then you're having a one way fight.

Most of northern Europe has generally low visibility as the norm inshore (offshore is a very different story). Training doesn't halt, it adapts. We manage to do that without losing divers on a regular basis.

 

[kammel78]

The comment I replied to said low visibiity was a binary, go/no go choice. It isn't. All diving, and particularly OW training, needs to be informed by some kind of risk assessment, whether that's a formal process (as it is in the UK as paid instructors are treated the same as any other diving contractor) or informal doesn't really matter. Low visibility can be mitigated by any number of steps (including choosing to not dive).

I was using "everyone" in the context of "everyone who lives in areas where turbid conditions are the norm". If you want to argue over semantics then you're having a one way fight.

Most of northern Europe has generally low visibility as the norm inshore (offshore is a very different story). Training doesn't halt, it adapts. We manage to do that without losing divers on a regular basis.

You're confusing so many things here. A "go/no-go" decision is "some kind of risk assessment". Qualifying dive conditions like visibility prior to diving is a standard practice, so I'm not sure what you're arguing against here. It feels like you're making a straw man argument.

And, yes it's' generalizing because you're taking a conversation around a very specific accident in a very specific type of condition and rationalizing your point with northern Europe "norms" (another generalization), grouping all types of divers together (everyone) and a false dichotomy of training in "polar opposites". And I'll say it again, the conversation is specifically around an OW class, not "training" in general.

The point is already conceded that OW classes have restrictions on the environment in which they're conducted. The question is can and should those restrictions be more explicit when it comes to either the conditions or the qualifications or ratios required to conduct the class?