VIP Inspectors: Identifiable vs Identified

[Diving Dubai]

The generic sticker I use has a place for my name and certification number....

View attachment 563547

IIRC, the sticker of the LDS being discussed doesn't have a number displayed. Honestly, I do not remember a single "shop sticker" having a number on it from any shop. Why do I if they don't?

Interesting...

Quite.

If a sticker represents and is used as a proof of validity, then there needs to be some standardisation with that sticker to ensure its been issued by a valid inspector who is in cert

For instance - without yoru number how could I check that you'd been trained or indeed are in cert

Shops should do the same, and then at least if you took your tank from shop A to shop B there should be some trust.

They shop will accept a Nitrox fill by showing a cert card without you sitting one of their exams.

I think too much weight is placed on the Vis inspection as it doesn't prove the cylinder can hold pressure or even that its safe to fill.

It only shows that on the day of inspection nothing problematic was seen

 

[Lorenzoid]

I see it as a question of reciprocity. Shops want other shops to honor their VIPs and so they honor other shop VIPs in kind. Nobody wants unnecessary friction with routine tasks. Just like the PADI shop/boat honors the c-card from SDI and vice versa. This system works because 99% of the time there is no need to question the source. For the ones that need to be questioned then the shop understands that they have to make some reasonable justification to their customer if they want to do business in the future.

Individuals participating in the VIP system are being viewed with distrust because there is no reciprocity. They are trying to change their role from customer to peer. It has nothing to do with the quality of the training or TDI vs PSI.

That does make some sense to me. Reciprocity requires that both parties not only inspect tanks but also fill tanks. So if Shop A is willing to take the risk that Shop B properly inspected a tank and fill it, it makes sense that Shop B would take the risk that Shop A properly inspected a tank and fill it. Of course, we have been educated in this thread that inspection seems to be less about fill operator safety than it is about making money.

 

[guruboy]

The generic sticker I use has a place for my name and certification number....

View attachment 563547

IIRC, the sticker of the LDS being discussed doesn't have a number displayed, nor a name of the actual person who performed it. Honestly, I do not remember a single "shop sticker" having a number or individual's name on it. I didn't know that there was a "shop certification"....

Why do I if they don't?

Interesting...

Because it doesn’t make sense to make a separate sticker for each VIP inspector at a shop.

More than likely they have their shop name on their sticker. If needed, this let’s you find the shop. The shop should then keep records of each VIP inspection, including the individual(s) who performed it.

I would avoid a shop using a generic sticker with no identifying information of any kind.

 

[Jeremy Williams]

I would avoid a shop using a generic sticker with no identifying information of any kind.

That’s the interesting point to me. Should the shop in question decline to honor at face value all VIPs marked with a generic sticker? If they honor generic stickers that they think are from shops, how is that sensible if they are declining to honor in the same way a VIP performed by an individual who is standing in the shop asking for a fill. Would a VIP performed by an individual be more illegitimate if it had a custom sticker?

 

[guruboy]

That’s the interesting point to me. Should the shop in question decline to honor at face value all VIPs marked with a generic sticker? If they honor generic stickers that they think are from shops, how is that sensible if they are declining to honor in the same way a VIP performed by an individual who is standing in the shop asking for a fill. Would a VIP performed by an individual be more illegitimate if it had a custom sticker?

why would one shop think a sticker came from another shop if a generic sticker is being used?

 

[rjack321]

wHEN IT COMES TO putting your identity on the tanks you inspect it is natural that there are 2 different views. The identity will suggest that the person is qualified in good standing and knows what they were doing. From an inspector view I would probably not want my id on the tank. Especially If I were not a trained inspector. If I was a customer I would want the ID to included , if nothing else, give credibility to the inspection validity. The majority of stickers are worthless in reality. most cite standards that do not exist and much more. As I see it the inspector ID says nothing more than who kperformed and who has the inspection records on file. AS AN END USER,,,,,WOULD YOU ACCEPT A HYDRO STAMP THAT DID NOT INCLUDE THE RETESTERS NUMBER??

Well except its a legal requirement that authorized retesters include their number. There is no such requirement for scuba VIPs at all. And in the rest of the compressed gas industry (everything non-scuba) there is no such thing as annual VIPs at all!

For instance:
Most composite SCBAs are on a 3 year inspection and hydro frequency (and 15yr total lifespan)
Typical O2 cylinders like used in hospitals and for home med. O2 use are on a 5 year frequency
Star rated compressed gas cylinders are on a 10 yr inspection frequency

"Requiring" the name or address or cert number or whatever on a scuba VIP is just making up arbitrary rules (once again). Its pretty sad that the entire scuba industry is so adamantly opposed to "government" intervention in C-cards and everything else about how they run their business. Yet here we are with random and arbitrary rules that vary from region to region and shop to shop precisely because there is no overarching authority to establish the line between what is reasonable and what is bogus. That doesn't necessarily have to be the federal government BTW. ASTM has written numerous standards which have become defacto best practices in many industries for instance. The scuba business secretly loves not having any real industry standards so they can shift their business practices with the wind and tides and make up new certs and requirements as new revenue. These new classes, certs, requirments etc are frequently couched and sold to cover the mythical liability monster, or for "safety".

 

[rob.mwpropane]

First off. I'm not certified to VIP, but I'm trying to understand some things.

I'm not sure how a VIP has been turned into rocket science, but hey, it's SB afterall....what would we be if not critical.

When a tank is hydro'd, a VIP is done beforehand to make sure hydro is even worth doing. Maybe not an in depth VIP, but a simple "check" nonetheless. Then it's hydro'd at 5/3 working pressure. After which it goes back to a shop and gets another VIP to avoid the cockroaches and spaghetti noodles left in the tank (it's crazy that's actually a thing that happened).

Now in years past there was the issue with running a tank empty (no spg's) and the J-Valve (I won't pretend I'm old enough to know what that is) and water getting inside, not to mention the maybe not so great or well serviced compressor getting contaminants / water in the tank after each fill (it's amazing that anyone's still alive from those "good ole days") And thus the VIP was born to avoid a "buildup" of stuff in a tank. We (divers) regulated ourselves to prevent any further regulation from outside forces.

Fast forward to today in 2020. Things have changed. We're equipped with SPG's or wireless transmitters. Tanks less likely to be emptied. Compressors are tested and produce cleaner air than ever before (or at least are monitored more so). People are aware of the issues in the past, and have for the most part remeddied them. A VIP to get common crud out of a tank is now more or less just a quick check.

Can anyone give 1 example in the last ~5-10 years that a tank was condemned within the 5 years after a hydro (which means the hydro must have been done in the last 5-10 years)? I'm just curious if the VIP that used to be from a safety standpoint has now turned into a "tax" from an LDS?

Just trying to learn.....

 

[rhwestfall]

You are quick learner...

And a danger....

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

If a SCUBA valve can hold back 3,000 PSI of air from escaping a tank, it can certainly hold back the pressure of ~50 PSI of water when the tank is run to empty.

The water enters the tank during the fill process because the tank valve is wet and the whip blows that water into the tank.

So, now the VIP is a tax imposed by the dive shops to fix damage they do to our tanks, by insisting they be filled wet. LOL...

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
When a tank is hydro'd, a VIP is done beforehand to make sure hydro is even worth doing. Maybe not an in depth VIP, but a simple "check" nonetheless. Then it's hydro'd at 5/3 working pressure. After which it goes back to a shop and gets another VIP to avoid the cockroaches and spaghetti noodles left in the tank (it's crazy that's actually a thing that happened). . . .

Maybe not relevant to the conversation, but just a quick note that it is possible for a tank that the hydro facility presumably gave a quickie VIP before testing and giving a pass, to then fail the subsequent, presumably more thorough VIP at a dive shop. I bought some older but freshly hydro'd tanks, and when I took them to the dive shop I was informed the rust pitting was pretty bad and the tanks would likely not pass the VIP threshold for pit depth, even after aggressive tumbling. Seems to me that progressive deepening of rust pits and similar damage is more of a concern than cockroaches, etc. I returned the tanks to the seller. The point is that I don't think passing hydro is necessarily an indication that the tanks will pass a shop VIP.