PADI members expelled

[Quero]

Maybe, even probably.

Assuming a student diver is familiar with drysuit diving, standards for PADI drysuit specialty certification require completion of knowledge review worksheets and two open water dives in which the student demonstrates competence in descending, neutral buoyancy swimming, ascending, holding a stop, and equipment removal and replacement. (Confined water training is required only if the student has no prior drysuit experience.) If the PADI instructor simply went on a dive with the student to check that s/he really did know how to dive in a drysuit but failed to check the diver's background knowledge (by way of the knowledge review worksheets), or did just one dive, or didn't require the diver to remove and replace his/her equipment, the instructor would be cutting corners by violating those particular standards.

 

[Diver0001]

How about this, would the PADI instructor be in touble?

--say someone already knew how to dive a drysuit (think GUE fundie pass in drysuit type). For some reason, he/she needs a PADI drysuit cert. Instead of taking the class, he/she went diving with a PADI instructor (for a small fee or friendship). Basically, he/she was there to demonstrate his/her proficiency with a drysuit. Then the PADI isntructor gave he/her a drysuit cert.

Is this a violaton?

Yes. The instructor is accountable for ensuring that the student masters all of the theory and performance requirements. PADI provides instruments (test, knowledge reviews, prescribed dives and skills) which the instructor is required to use when issuing a PADI cert. If the instructor doesn't do that and issues a cert then it's a standards violation.

In practice, however, such things happen often, especially with respect to instructors "cross certifying" each other in order to ratchet up the number of registered certs they have. Some instructors make a habit of doing this because it makes them look more experienced on paper than they really are. In the case of instructors certifying each other for specialties, some people try to justify it by pointing out that the person being certified may actually be qualified to teach a given specialty but may not have the specialty card.

R..

 

[DCBC]

About 15 years ago I signed off a Royal Navy diver for his advanced. I chose advanced because the requirements are looser than the requirements for OW. He had his logbooks with him, showing over 10,000 logged dives and about 22,000 hours in the water. He swam like a fish, had perfect control, and quite frankly, was a far better diver than I ever was or would be. He filled out the paperwork properly.

I never felt bad about not selling him an "Adventures in Diving" book.

I haven't been expelled, yet. Maybe my times is coming.

PADI has a history of certification upon proof of equivalence. If you are ever 'expelled,' don't forget to remind PADI that in the 70's it was PADI policy to cross-certify Instructors from other organizations without requiring any water or examination requirements. The only thing I had to do was provide PADI with a copy of my NAUI card and pay a $25.00 certification fee.

I too am happy to certify any Navy Diver on request. Twenty-two thousand hours is hard for people to understand. It amounts to living 2 1/2 years underwater 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in a variety of diving conditions and locations. I don't think you'll ever run afoul of PADI for certifying him....

 

[Diver0001]

PADI has a history of certification upon proof of equivalence. If you are ever 'expelled,' don't forget to remind PADI that in the 70's it was PADI policy to cross-certify Instructors from other organizations without requiring any water or examination requirements. The only thing I had to do was provide PADI with a copy of my NAUI card and pay a $25.00 certification fee.

PADI isn't the only agency to have done this when they were trying to grow.... and maybe in the case of a navy diver with 22k hours of logged time an exception could/should be made, but it should have been left to PADI to make that decision. An individual member wouldn't have the authority to decide this on their own regardless of how obvious it looked.

R..

 

[Edward3c]

i may be wrong but my understanding is PADI acknowledge BSAC (and other agency) certs as entry requirements, for example a BSAC Sports Diver would be able to do PADI Rescue, skipping OW and AOW.

A BSAC club will let you dive with PADI qualifications but can do crossovers for equivalent diver grades.

For clarity.

BSAC only award BSAC qualifications when an individual has passed a BSAC course. A BSAC EQUIVALENCE card (4th card down) can be purchased, but it isn’t the qualification.

Kind regards

 

[FM1520]

Maybe if they don't meet some annual minimum spending limit?????

 

[Wookie]

In practice, however, such things happen often, especially with respect to instructors "cross certifying" each other in order to ratchet up the number of registered certs they have.
R..

It's good to find someone who is getting ready to be a Course Director. Mine issued me specialty cards for all of the specialties I was allowed to teach as an instructor, but hadn't bothered to collect as a diver.

 

[DCBC]

PADI isn't the only agency to have done this when they were trying to grow.... and maybe in the case of a navy diver with 22k hours of logged time an exception could/should be made, but it should have been left to PADI to make that decision. An individual member wouldn't have the authority to decide this on their own regardless of how obvious it looked.

R..

I appreciate your opinion. I do however feel that the onus is on the Instructor to ascertain if the Student does or does not meet the certification requirements. Authorization for student certification is the responsibility and domain of the Instructor and not the Agency. The Agency establishes the requirements for certification, but doesn't examine, or even see the Student in the water. They require the Instructor to make this assessment. In the case of law suit, they quickly hide behind this fact. You can't have it both ways.

Wookie has stated that the student "was a far better diver than I ever was or would be." Obviously he felt that the student exceeded PADI's AOW requirements, which from my perspective is his responsibility not PADI's.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have issued SEI advanced cards to a couple Navy divers. SEI relies on the judgment of the instructor. I did send each the med statement and waiver/release. What I got back in both cases were those accompanied by their most recent physicals, both sent copies of their logs (in one case some info had been blacked out, I knew better than to ask why), and both sent letters of verification from their immediate supervisors. Had no problem issuing them at all.
I have always felt that the instructor is the best judge of who is qualified and who is not. And appreciate that I can consider a students attitude towards safety, and other items along with how well they do something before issuing a card.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Diver0001]

I appreciate your opinion. I do however feel that the onus is on the Instructor to ascertain if the Student does or does not meet the certification requirements. Authorization for student certification is the responsibility and domain of the Instructor and not the Agency.

I totally 100% agree with this in the normal case that the instructor is actually teaching the course.

In the case in point, however, the instructor wasn't teaching the course. He was certifying without teaching the course on the *assumption* that the diver's log book was proof of sufficient skill that teaching the course was unnecessary. In this case the instructor has nothing to evaluate except a written document and I believe in these cases (at least, that's what I would do) it should be referred to the agency.

But I agree with you in the normal case. Normally the instructor is and should be the gate-keeper.

Wookie has stated that the student "was a far better diver than I ever was or would be." Obviously he felt that the student exceeded PADI's AOW requirements, which from my perspective is his responsibility not PADI's.

I must have missed something. Up until now I thought we were talking about certifying the student based solely on his paper records.

Frankly, If I were faced with a diver who had 22k hours of bottom time and could clearly dive circles around me then I wouldn't be too worried about making some assumptions about his skills and knowledge either. The limitation, however, is that PADI doesn't provide me with an instrument to make exceptions to process if I get an exceptional student. Wookie probably did the right thing (it would be pretty embarrassing to tell a diver with that kind of experience that he needed to take the OW course) but strictly speaking your hands are tied unless PADI had a cross-certifying agreement with the Navy, which I'm pretty sure they don't.

R..