Sharing air to extend bottom time

[buton]

I saw this in Cozumel in our diving group with the dm doing it to a 17 year old kid...

I just think diving should be taken seriously..

 

[DevonDiver]

Of course it might be a lot easier to carry a small pony and use an equalizer whip on the boat to get three dives out of two tanks.. and the diver would not have to drag around two big tanks for the whole dive....Right?

From personal experience, I find sidemount (or for that matter, back-mounted indies on cams) much easier that cross-filling on a dive boat. I used to use a whip to 'top-up doubles, it was a PITA.

The thing that surprised me, when I crossed over to sidemount, was that it didn't feel like you were dragging around two big tanks. I actually prefer it, compared to a backmounted single. If you put the tanks on the in the water (the most popular option), you're never lugging anything. Once in the water, they just sit out of the way along your side... it's a very 'free' feeling.

I don't mean to turn this thread into an 'advert' for sidemount. I just felt it was a realistic and credible alternative, for a particular demographic of recreational divers who have issues with dive duration/gas supply. There's still a lot of misunderstanding about the use of sidemount for recreational diving... I guess I am just trying to show that 'it's not rocket science'... it's not 'tekkie' and it's not exclusive.

 

[Peter Guy]

Andy, IF I was going to be diving on a regular basis in situations where I was going to regularly "borrow a cup of air" I would use a different strategy -- perhaps sidemount, perhaps doubles, perhaps merely slinging a stage. OTOH, since this is a seldom done activity, but a nice "arrow in my quiver" when desired (note, not needed but desired), I'll continue risking death and destruction by this extraordinarly unsafe practice (which even you admit is NOT unsafe as done the way Lynne and I do it).

BTW, just took a look at the TEC Basics guidelines from PADI. This is, of course, a "techreational" class -- i.e., an introduction to the wonderful world of technical diving for a recreational (AOW) diver. Guess what -- in this class I, as the instructor, am required to teach the students how to do an air share with a horizontal swim -- i.e., do an air share without even attempting an ascent. In addition, I would be required to teach them the basics of using a stage. Seems to me that, in this class, PADI is indicating that sharing air without ascending is supposed to be a normal (and perhaps useful) activity.

 

[Teamcasa]

... I don't like to hear 'experienced divers' scoffing at their problem or recommending 'un-sanctioned' techniques that may not be optimal for their capability level. Heck... having to share air on a dive is hardly optimal for their enjoyment level either... or their sense of self-esteem.

A. It's not a problem. It's a decision made based on a narrow set of circumstances. (On vacation, limited tank availability ect)
B. It's not an un-sanctioned technique. It a technique that allows us to practice air-sharing while having a bit of fun.
C. It's well within our mutual capability as we practice it many times.
D. It does indeed optimize our enjoyment level.
E. Any self-esteem issues are not with us - they may however, be with those whose advise against this practice goes unheeded.

You have tried, even pulling out all of the stops in regulation minutia, offering up un-realistic gear alternatives and finally attempting to shame or demean those of us who enjoy this practice, all to what end?
I have posted and continue to refute the obvious misconceptions so that new divers as well as some of the seasoned divers can see there are very well qualified divers with 1000's of dives that do this safely and enjoy it.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'll continue risking death and destruction by this extraordinarly unsafe practice (which even you admit is NOT unsafe as done the way Lynne and I do it).

Peter, I'm not aware that I've pulled the "you're gonna die" card in this debate - if anything I said is interpretable in that manner, then I apologize. I've merely tried to analyse options in order to differentiate 'optimal' from 'sub-optimal'.

At the very most, I believe that using air-sharing in the context of prolonged periods during the regular course of a dive may place some divers in a position of task-loading, which may be detrimental to their overall stress level and ability to cope with any further negative stimulus. Does that make sense?

My other concern is that there is a lack of training for this specific technique. Yes, air-sharing is covered within OW class, but not in the same context. Air-sharing ascents have a very specific context and very specific goal. In line with that concern, are some ethical and legal issues that would, specifically, impact dive pros who might advocate this. In that respect, there is a huge gulf between saying "it is good to practice air-sharing" compared to saying "you can air-share to extend dive duration". PADI would support a recommendation to practice a skill. I seriously doubt that they'd support the context of extending a dive through the use of this technique. If in doubt - ask them. Of course, that's not necessary for personal use - only if you want their legal support should a liability case ever be raised - having recommended that technique to student divers.

Guess what -- in this class I, as the instructor, am required to teach the students how to do an air share with a horizontal swim -- i.e., do an air share without even attempting an ascent

That's context...and you know it. The drill may not include an actual ascent - a consideration for the fluidity of the lesson - but the context is that it is simulating an ascent. You and I both know full well that there is nothing in the PADI Tec program that advocates air-sharing in anything other than an OOA context. The same is true for the recreational program. In that respect, please don't quote 'S-Drills' either - they are a descent check to ensure that long hose deployment is not compromised.

Seems to me that, in this class, PADI is indicating that sharing air without ascending is supposed to be a normal (and perhaps useful) activity.

If you feel that way, then you have an ethical prerogative to clarify your interpretation with PADI directly.

You have tried, even pulling out all of the stops in regulation minutia, offering up un-realistic gear alternatives and finally attempting to shame or demean those of us who enjoy this practice, all to what end?

To present a different opinion and different options. Nothing more, nothing less.

I haven't quoted minutia - I have quoted training standards. i.e. the foundations upon which all student divers are trained and the specific guidance given to instructors on the context, performance, goals and conduct of skills taught. In doing so, I provided clear evidence that air-sharing is not taught for any reason, other than to conduct an OOA ascent.



You believe sidemount is unrealistic - I believe that view originates from ignorance. Same sort of blind argument we got from the anti-BP&W crowd who couldn't see beyond the 'tech origins' of configuration. As sidemount becomes increasingly prevalent in the recreational community, views will change.

I don't intend to demean or shame anyone. That is neither my intent, nor reflected in my words. I simply offer the facts that I'm aware of and suggest my opinions. How those make you feel, is truly your issue to deal with.

I have posted and continue to refute the obvious misconceptions so that new divers as well as some of the seasoned divers can see there are very well qualified divers with 1000's of dives that do this safely and enjoy it

The definition of unsanctioned is: "without explicit official permission". If you can't provide evidence that a scuba agency explicitly permits the use of air-sharing to extend bottom time, then please concede the point. I'm qualified to teach pretty much every course in the PADI recreational curriculum - and I've never encountered a reference permitting that. Same is true for BSAC and SSI. It is only referenced as an out-of-air emergency ascent drill... or practice to replicate that specific scenario. There is no explicit permission for alternative use of the technique.

In that respect - please be mindful of the forum Terms of Service. You should not advocate unsafe diving practices 'as defined by the major scuba agencies'. Do we need to get an official agency ruling on this?

 

[Tigerman]

First practice of air-sharing is actually swimming horizontally in the pool while sharing air "simulating and ascent"?

 

[dpaustex]

Technically, you are not supposed to share air. Sharing air is a signal for an "out of air" situation on one of the diver's part, while at depth. This means you immediately start to head up to your safety stop, and lacking a safety stop, go ahead and surface. That's what all the classes teach.

A few years ago, I was on a liveaboard in the Galapagos, and a father/son did this. The DM said "no way". and tired to get them to surface. An after-dive argument ensued, to the point the Captain got involved. Basically, not allowed, and the father/son backed down (to the point of having to be told the agreement they signed said Captain is ultimate authority).

However, if you have someone "hoovering" air, and have some type of pre-dive game plan, then it's a group call. However, with my students, the regulations say "low air, go up". Period. I would say it is generally a very bad idea, because if you accidentally breath the other tank down, too, then what?

 

[DevonDiver]

First practice of air-sharing is actually swimming horizontally in the pool while sharing air "simulating and ascent"?

Yes... which echos the way that skills are broken down into steps and introduced progressively over the duration of a course. It's common with all PADI courses.... all agencies actually....

Teach air-sharing.
Teach ascent.
Teach air-sharing ascent.

There's nothing vague about the context of the skill though.

We teach CESA horizontally at first also. Will you be trying to argue that this practice has a particular context, other than ascent, also?

When doing the PADI IDC, instructors are taught how to properly brief a skill, prior to practice. That briefing includes the context... the 'reason' why students should learn the skill. That context is provided in the instructor manual. There is NOTHING, repeat NOTHING, to reference 'extending bottom time' by air-sharing, in that instructor manual. To brief students (advocate that context of the skill) would be absolutely incorrect and contrary to training standards.

 

[Tigerman]

...
We teach CESA horizontally at first also. Will you be trying to argue that this practice has a particular context, other than ascent, also?
...

Well, my first option if not within touching distance of my buddy, would of course be if I could swim to him/her and get air from there instead of going up..
But its two completely different things, really. If you share some air to "even out" the consumption or if youre already OUT OF AIR is quite different.

 

[DevonDiver]

Well, my first option if not within touching distance of my buddy, would of course be if I could swim to him/her and get air from there instead of going up..
But its two completely different things, really. If you share some air to "even out" the consumption or if youre already OUT OF AIR is quite different.

In both instances - we're discussing what is taught and why it is taught.

As you identify - 'balancing air consumption' and 'out-of-air' are two quite different things. Only the later context is taught to scuba divers. The other is unsanctioned.

CESA isn't taught to cover distance horizontally in the water. That's why it is a CESA. Neither is air-sharing... it is only referred to as an 'Air-Sharing Ascent'.