Photo Equipment, puppies, Elvis and how much money should you spend on equipment

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Puffer Fish

Captain Happy
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A long time ago, I viewed myself as one day becoming a great photographer. I learned how to use and owned every type of equipment that existed, from view cameras to 35mm, and did lots of commercial work. So when I saw that Minor White was going to be an exchange professor at the University of Wisconsin, I signed up for every class he gave.

To take the class, you needed a camera that could shoot slide film, but oddly there was no requirement other than that.

In the class, we were to spend equal time learning methods and having our photographs reviewed.

The standard practice was to go a field trip, with a specific theme and on the bus, he would give you one roll of slide film, which you gave back to him and he would use whichever image he wanted from your shoots during the class. They might be good ones, bad ones or ones he just wanted to discuss. He always used at least one from each student, but the norm was around 6.

Minor could be very ruthless in his reviews, he would first review your methods, framing, and lighting, and then go on to discuss why the image was taken and what you were trying to communicate.

We learned very quickly never to say any sentence that started with "I was trying to......", that would lead to terrible public ridicule. Nor was it acceptable to say that you thought it was a pretty image...this was an art class.

One of the classes was to a state park, with all sorts of water, rocks and trees just at the point of turning fall colors. During the review, the guy that was to my right in class, was asked about one of his images.

The guy had brought a Hassiblad, with a haliburton case filled with lens. The most expensive photo setup I had ever seen. Today, such a system would cost in excess of $150,000.

The image, as I remember, was of a small stream, and well, was nothing remarkable.

Minor asked "Why did you take this? And our guy responded with: "Well, I didn't have the right lens with me, so I did the best I could".

There was dead silence in the room...as we all knew he was going to be made a fool of....but all there was, was a long pause, followed by an "Oh" from Minor.

That was the only slide of his he showed, and he went on with the class.

Next field trip was State street in Madison, Wis on a Sat morning. It is the classic college busy small store retail area.

As we made the short trip over, Minor gave out the film, and then reached down and pulled out a brownie camera, and stated that "Today, I think I will join you in taking pictures".

For those that don't know what a brownie camera is:

Beginners Guide To Understanding And Using A Brownie Box Camera by Peter Lutz

I don't remember any of us say a word...as the shock of this great phtographer holding a cheap brownie to take pictures with was totally unexpected.

We did the photo shoot, and the next class, after the normal presentation, and after the review of our images, with only a few minutes left, Minor asked a very casual question " Anyone care to see the pictures I took?"

He took 12 images (120 film)..and showed all 12. What I remembered from them was how absolutely beautiful they were. One in particular, was of a shop owner coming out to yell at the newspaper boy....it looked alive.

Minor never said anything while he showed them. We all just stared. At the end, He just looked over at our Hassiblad guy, and said "Photography should never be about the equipment" and then dismissed the class.

Later, we learned what that actually meant, and I learned that I would never be a great photographer.

Art is not about what camera you use, or what method you employ, it is not about where you focus or if you use the rule of thirds. Equipment and methods are tools you use to produce your image.

Craft work is about just the tools and methods. Craft can have value, just ask the people that make large eyed puppies and Elvis images on black velvet. You need the right tools and skills to make one of those, but they are not art.

What does this have to do with UW photography? A lot actually.

When you decide to take pictures underwater, you should start by deciding what you want to take pictures of, then what sort of conditions you will be diving in, how much you want to spend and finally what sort of tools and skills you need to take pictures that you like.

If you only like images of Manta Rays, then find people that take Manta images you like, and learn from them, but understand that means only a couple of places in the world to take pictures.

If you like taking pictures of people, or super macro, or fish or wide angle wreck images...they are all different skills.

Just be careful to avoid the "you can only really take good pictures if you buy..... (fill in the blank)" You can use the cheapest made under water camera and create magic with it.

We have a frequent poster here, that dives in really interesting places that has a web site where you can see what can be done with a simple setup:

Jim Spears

I used to use his web site in my class, because the images were in fairly good date order, so you could see his growth over the years. Now, it is not so easy.

Want to take great shallow water images in the northern gulf of mexico? There is only one person to check out (Sea Yoda)...are they grand images like whale sharks? No. Are they wonderfully colorful images like in GBR? Nope. But I have seen hundreds if not thousands of people take images there, and he is the best.

But keep this in mind, for every real photographer out there, you can expect to hear from 10 Elvis painters... they tend to be loud, and are convinced that equipment makes the photographer.

Just remember that it is better to be able to use the brownie, than to own the Hassiblad and not be able to make art.

I'll attempt to cover "what actually is art?" in the next post.
 
Art versus craft.. boy what a subject to get into arguments about.

Every see the poster here that demands to see images so they can critique them? Well, before getting involved in that, you should know if they are an artist or a craftsman.

Actually, if you are asked that, you already know the answer..only craftsman do that.

If one makes a chair, and another craftsman says anything, the response will be, "well, show me yours!!!!".

Art is never about "show me your, so I can evaluate it"...to do that would assume that the requester actually has some special skill that only they have.

But just what is art?

The easiest answer would be to say "I know it when I see it", but you may not. In truth, you may not have the skill needed or the point of view needed.

I used to really not like Monet paintings...they, to me, looked like, well, one step above the big eyed puppy on velvet paintings.

Then, I got to see a showing of them... I was stunned at how good they were. I could say it was because photographs don't show the grandness of the painting, but the truth is, I did not get it...and to cover my not getting it, I insulted the work.

I would never say I know the answer, but I do know how Minor and Edward Weston and Ansel Adams defined it, it unless someone with better credentials comes up with a better definition, will use that.

Art is presenting an image that communicates something from one person to another. That is it.

So to take an art photograph the photographer first has to be trying to communicate something.

Art truly is in the eye of the beholder... so one persons communication may not ever reach anyone....and that is the difference between being average and being great.

Lots of people have taken images of the west, but Ansel Adams's image speak differently to people, and that is art.

Back to the issue of how you know if it is art, it starts with the photographer taking that image to say something...if it is just a picture using a method or of something big, it is not art.

Keeping in mind that my "art" may or may not mean anything to you, but two of the following images are craft images, and two are art images:

fairybasset_03.jpg


Bibb_02.JPG


nudi940.JPG


diver_100.JPG


They should be obvious, but that is from my point of view...it may not be from yours.

So, to make this a bit clearer, if the image was taken to communicate something (more than just look at the cool image), then it would be presented to the viewer as such.

Craft images are things like:

"Look at my sun burst picture"

"Look at the great fish picture"

"Look at my wide angle shot"

"Look at my super macro image".

Anytime the equipment or technic is part of the image, it is a craft image.

Everyone taking pictures today starts with craft images, and only a very small percentage ever get past it...
 
Puffer You have quoted that to teach photography I used to use his web site in my class.
That you where a student of Minor White.
Claimed that your photo's are truely uniqueOdd, because there are no fish living in the Northern gulf that I do not have clear, infocus images of, with a point and shoot. And as several places that use my images have noted, some of them they cannot find any slr images of.

Going by your own words you state that you have decades of experience. Studied under the one of the most famous photographers in modern American history, teach a class yourself, Sold many a photo and do not use the medium of the computer monitor to view your work. Sounds like your a living legend.

Then go on to quote: I guess it is too much to ask, but I wish that anyone using a camera do some homework, learn a bit about the technology and it's good and bad points and actually compare identical images, and then make judgements.


So going by your own words comparing and making judgements is an important part of learning photography. But if you fail to provide images its hard to compare and make judgement on what you have explained in text.

It just shows that your an arm chair expert and the excuse of "I dont need to show my work to show I know what I am saying" doesnt really cut it for me.

Would you respect say Minor White if criticised other people work in the class and never provided any of his own work as a reference point? It comes to "Thinks they know and knows they know", "Walk the walk and talk the talk".

Art Vs Craft. Havnt you quoted that: Art is in the eye of the beholder??


Your contradicting yourself here. You say "Craft work is about just the tools and methods. Craft can have value, just ask the people that make large eyed puppies and Elvis images on black velvet. You need the right tools and skills to make one of those, but they are not art."

And then say: Art is presenting an image that communicates something from one person to another. That is it.


If someone looked at the big eyed puppies image or Elvis images on velvet can got a emotional reaction from the experience one can say its art to them. It might not be to you but to them it can be.

You then say: So, to make this a bit clearer, if the image was taken to communicate something (more than just look at the cool image), then it would be presented to the viewer as such.

Craft images are things like:

"Look at my sun burst picture"

"Look at the great fish picture"

"Look at my wide angle shot"

"Look at my super macro image".

Anytime the equipment or technic is part of the image, it is a craft image.


So "Look at the oil paintings" makes all the oil paintings in any art gallery just craft..............So now one can add Art critic to your list of many arm chair talents.

Unfortunately forums allows so call arm chair experts to regurgitate their opinions and quiet often or not are based on their limited experience or no experience at all, other what they have repeated in what they have found on the internet.

I believe actions speak louder than words and when someone can talk about a technic, style, idea and provide actually physical examples of their work goes a long way in my book.

Mark
 
The School of On the Job Training is much cheaper & a lot less demoralizing....?I think
 
I guess that I am just too dumb to understand this. My photo teacher (not Minor White) would tell me that art is something that your stepmother would put on her living room wall and I pretty much think I know it when I see it. So far I haven't seen it here.

At LAUPS (the Los Angeles UW Photo society) we have monthly shootouts and prints/pics are judged by our peers anonymously. Most months I don't get how some folk judge my pics but every month there is a pic or two that everyone understands and knows they want it on their wall. That to me is art.

We don't talk much about gear; some folks shoot small format stuff, some folks shoot really cool high end digital, one guy shoots a Nikonos RS, but most of the really good stuff come from the same few guys/girls who are really talented artists. We do talk a lot about technique and how to actually get the shot that we can pre-visualize.

In any case, art is whatever you think it is, or whatever someone will pay for, and you get to define it for yourself. I will stick with trying to make pics that my wife's mom would put on her wall.

Bill
 
The distinction between art and craft is a legitimate one, in my opinion, but best left to coffee-house philosophers, between episodes of free verse punctuated by bongo drums.:wink: I do not aspire to art in my photography. If I successfully capture the unusual natural beauty that characterizes a healthy coral reef, then I consider the venture successful, because that is challenging enough (for me). And I will take the equipment that makes that success most likely, within the constraints of my budget. If you try to pass your foggy black-and-white wreck photos off as art because they evoke a particular mood you wanted to convey, I'll accept that...but I won't accept that you are an artist until you can show me some in-focus and color-balanced shots too, just to let me know that you conveyed the mood on purpose. So, in my opinion, art is truly in the eye of the beholder, and is independent of craft, but you can only be an artist if you have mastered your craft. <cue bongos>
 
I expected no less from you. I have never said my photographs are unique, never stated that I was some great photographer or that I am an art critic.

I happen to love technology and photo technic.

But all I have seen in your images is some nice craft work. And craftman don't understand anything that does not reflect their view of the world.

You will notice that when I see a nice image (even yours), I compliment it. Just my personal point of view on what I like, and nothing more.

You repeatedly post about how everyone else is an "armchair" expert, ever consider that you might not be able to tell?



Puffer You have quoted that to teach photography I used to use his web site in my class.
That you where a student of Minor White.
Claimed that your photo's are truely uniqueOdd, because there are no fish living in the Northern gulf that I do not have clear, infocus images of, with a point and shoot. And as several places that use my images have noted, some of them they cannot find any slr images of.

Going by your own words you state that you have decades of experience. Studied under the one of the most famous photographers in modern American history, teach a class yourself, Sold many a photo and do not use the medium of the computer monitor to view your work. Sounds like your a living legend.

Then go on to quote: I guess it is too much to ask, but I wish that anyone using a camera do some homework, learn a bit about the technology and it's good and bad points and actually compare identical images, and then make judgements.


So going by your own words comparing and making judgements is an important part of learning photography. But if you fail to provide images its hard to compare and make judgement on what you have explained in text.

It just shows that your an arm chair expert and the excuse of "I dont need to show my work to show I know what I am saying" doesnt really cut it for me.

Would you respect say Minor White if criticised other people work in the class and never provided any of his own work as a reference point? It comes to "Thinks they know and knows they know", "Walk the walk and talk the talk".

Art Vs Craft. Havnt you quoted that: Art is in the eye of the beholder??


Your contradicting yourself here. You say "Craft work is about just the tools and methods. Craft can have value, just ask the people that make large eyed puppies and Elvis images on black velvet. You need the right tools and skills to make one of those, but they are not art."

And then say: Art is presenting an image that communicates something from one person to another. That is it.


If someone looked at the big eyed puppies image or Elvis images on velvet can got a emotional reaction from the experience one can say its art to them. It might not be to you but to them it can be.

You then say: So, to make this a bit clearer, if the image was taken to communicate something (more than just look at the cool image), then it would be presented to the viewer as such.

Craft images are things like:

"Look at my sun burst picture"

"Look at the great fish picture"

"Look at my wide angle shot"

"Look at my super macro image".

Anytime the equipment or technic is part of the image, it is a craft image.


So "Look at the oil paintings" makes all the oil paintings in any art gallery just craft..............So now one can add Art critic to your list of many arm chair talents.

Unfortunately forums allows so call arm chair experts to regurgitate their opinions and quiet often or not are based on their limited experience or no experience at all, other what they have repeated in what they have found on the internet.

I believe actions speak louder than words and when someone can talk about a technic, style, idea and provide actually physical examples of their work goes a long way in my book.

Mark
 
I would hope that no one considers me an artist, in any sense of the word. If you read what I wrote carefully, it was that I learned I don't have that ability to see what makes great images. But I did learn to tell the difference (ok, I got half way there).

Nothing wrong with trying to capture the image of something you like, it is perhaps the most valid use for a camera. (and you don't need me to tell you that).

My point was about people that make judgements about others gear and technics.

But if you have to see some other image, before you evaluate the one in front of you, you are missing the point.

The distinction between art and craft is a legitimate one, in my opinion, but best left to coffee-house philosophers, between episodes of free verse punctuated by bongo drums.:wink: I do not aspire to art in my photography. If I successfully capture the unusual natural beauty that characterizes a healthy coral reef, then I consider the venture successful, because that is challenging enough (for me). And I will take the equipment that makes that success most likely, within the constraints of my budget. If you try to pass your foggy black-and-white wreck photos off as art because they evoke a particular mood you wanted to convey, I'll accept that...but I won't accept that you are an artist until you can show me some in-focus and color-balanced shots too, just to let me know that you conveyed the mood on purpose. So, in my opinion, art is truly in the eye of the beholder, and is independent of craft, but you can only be an artist if you have mastered your craft. <cue bongos>
 
Bill, thank you for understanding.

I guess that I am just too dumb to understand this. My photo teacher (not Minor White) would tell me that art is something that your stepmother would put on her living room wall and I pretty much think I know it when I see it. So far I haven't seen it here.

At LAUPS (the Los Angeles UW Photo society) we have monthly shootouts and prints/pics are judged by our peers anonymously. Most months I don't get how some folk judge my pics but every month there is a pic or two that everyone understands and knows they want it on their wall. That to me is art.

We don't talk much about gear; some folks shoot small format stuff, some folks shoot really cool high end digital, one guy shoots a Nikonos RS, but most of the really good stuff come from the same few guys/girls who are really talented artists. We do talk a lot about technique and how to actually get the shot that we can pre-visualize.

In any case, art is whatever you think it is, or whatever someone will pay for, and you get to define it for yourself. I will stick with trying to make pics that my wife's mom would put on her wall.

Bill
 
If the proof is in the pudding, I think all we have to do is take a quick look at the two combatant's posted pictures. I think Mark obviously has both better technique, as well as composes artfull photographs (not just snapshots). Aussiebyron, your work speaks volumes, and your comments are spot on!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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