DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[Diver0001]

Atticus once bubbled...
<snip>

My case was particularly pertubing in that the LDS specified that they didn't want me to be seen wearing gear they don't sell even on my own time, nor to be seen walking into the store that sells said gear (the Halcyon dealer / competitor).

<snip>

What a shame. My LSD carries diverite gear but I didn't want that. I told them I wanted Halcyon and not only did they agree with a big smile on their faces but they spent the time to call around for me and managed to arrange the wing, steel bp, harness, dual cam-bands/single tank thingy and the padded thing (not sure what it's called) for a net price of about $200.

It's really a case of you-scratch-my-back-and-i;ll-scratch-yours. Same thing for maintenance. Not only does the shop maintain my regs but they do it together with me so I can learn it too.

and so on and so on.

Being a DM can have perks. They're not big on a financial scale but don't let yourself get walked on either.......

R..

 

[ZoCrowes255]

Nevermind

 

[paulwlee]

If you are a DM helping out in class, I think it's a reasonable request. AFAIK, stores make most of their revenue from gear sales, so it's pretty important to them. Of course then I feel the store should offer gear at a discounted rate.

At my LDS, I think instructors are expected to dive with what the store carries, and also DM/AI's, although it's not heavily enforced. I used to feel bad about diving with my Atomic regulator and Suunto computer (both bought used) when my dive store didn't carry those brands. Luckily they now sell those brands, so no more inner conflict for me!
Actually, they now sell almost every brand out there so good for them!

 

[ZoCrowes255]

ppilot once bubbled...


What is your store called? I'd like to make sure to avoid it if I'm ever in the area.

No offense, but what you said (above) is patronizing, self-serving, shortsighted, and insulting.

How is it shortsited? We don't have the resources to have a constant Instructor or DM mill going. We only offer leadership courses to those who wish to teach for us. It's a long process for us and we like it that way (for right now with the resources we have.) I'm not saying that anyone not trained through us is a bad instructor. Eventually we might become a regional center for training but for right now we just do staff for our store and the occasional person from another area.

And there are a lot of places that are mills. Flip through Sport Diver some time and take a look at the ads for leadership training. One place garuntees you will pass your training course. I just find something wrong with that.

 

[Genesis]

Nobody is forcing a person to DM. If they don't like the apprenticeship program that we offer then they can go take a DM course in southern Florida.

So let me see if I get this right.

You think that people should come into your store, sign up for a class, pay you for that class, the end result of which is that (after paying for the class) they are then expected to provide you with free labor, AND buy gear you want them to shill for you at their expense? In other words, you expect them to not only work for free, but to shill for your store AND buy whatever you want them to shill to your future students?

This is what I am actually purchasing when I buy the DM course?

Ex-fsking-scuse me?

Why would anyone take that deal?

I usually expect to get kissed before I get f&ed.

What does the "student-cum-DM" get out of this deal? He has a professional rating now, but he's not getting paid. He has, however, exposed himself to civil liability that he didn't have before, and while you may cover him for his insurance (or do you expect him to pay for that too?) that won't be enough if something REALLY bad happens - his house could go "poof" quite easily. Further, he's expected to pony up to the bar some (or perhaps even a lot) of his money so that he presents a nice "face" for your gear-selling, er, training operation.

You actually have suckers, er, "customers" who are lined up to do this for you?

You're kidding, right?

The "face" stuff is reasonable. But the last time I checked, companies paid people for advertising and promotion.

In virtually all cases.

It is unheard of for someone to pay YOU to promote YOUR stuff! That's exactly backwards!

Unbelieveable.

 

[ZoCrowes255]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...


This goes back to the useful vs. money-grub style LDS man. The NAUI TA is good for younger divers who want to help out, or the mature divers who never want to be leaders with all the costs & liabilities involved, but it's a frivolous specialty imho.

I was always interested in the DM course but never pursued it until I found a LDS that I was 100% comfortable with, I guarantee you any shop that suggested I spend $150 or more upfront for a silly cert like TA would never see my face again.

I understand (I was not around when it was instituted) we do the Training Assistant because we had a few people go through the Divemaster course and at the end of it all they decided that they did not want to teach. So they owed us for an expensive cert they were never going to use. Well if you issue the TA first and they decide that they don't want to move onto a leadership role they don't owe us for anything except the 30 bucks to get the TA card instead of the few hundred bucks on the DM course. They don't have to pay for the TA course just the cost of the card.

 

[ZoCrowes255]

Genesis once rambled on endlessly about...


So let me see if I get this right.

You think that people should come into your store, sign up for a class, pay you for that class, the end result of which is that (after paying for the class) they are then expected to provide you with free labor, AND buy gear you want them to shill for you at their expense? In other words, you expect them to not only work for free, but to shill for your store AND buy whatever you want them to shill to your future students?

This is what I am actually purchasing when I buy the DM course?

Ex-fsking-scuse me?

Why would anyone take that deal?

I usually expect to get kissed before I get f&ed.

What does the "student-cum-DM" get out of this deal? He has a professional rating now, but he's not getting paid. He has, however, exposed himself to civil liability that he didn't have before, and while you may cover him for his insurance (or do you expect him to pay for that too?) that won't be enough if something REALLY bad happens - his house could go "poof" quite easily. Further, he's expected to pony up to the bar some (or perhaps even a lot) of his money so that he presents a nice "face" for your gear-selling, er, training operation.

You actually have suckers, er, "customers" who are lined up to do this for you?

You're kidding, right?

The "face" stuff is reasonable. But the last time I checked, companies paid people for advertising and promotion.

In virtually all cases.

It is unheard of for someone to pay YOU to promote YOUR stuff! That's exactly backwards!

Unbelieveable.

Get off your high horse man. A DM candidate helps with class because he WANTS to. Most find it to be fun. They would not do something this time consuming or expensive if they did not enjoy it. He will probably get a few free trips down to FLA out of it too and 2 leadership courses taught at cost. The IT's and Instructor's get nothing for training a Divemaster or Instructor. We do it because we enjoy it.

We tell them all up front what they are in for.

They are expected to buy equipment for use with our students if we don't feel it's appropriate for class. We have a specific timeframe for the to do so (Divemaster rating.) They don't have to buy new equipment. Hell, they don't even have to buy it from us. I think the current guy is going to buy a used BC from a guy who comes in the store. If he did buy one from us he would most likely get it on or near cost.

The owner just had two people ask him today about working with classes and both signed up for Rescue so they can get started. He told them what I told you. Finding DM's and Instructor's has never been a problem for us.

 

[coliseum]

You are a DM Candidate, are you taking the DM course at the same LDS?

If Yes:
1- You are their customer, they cannot tell you what to do
2- If they nicely ask you to promote their equipment and you agree, they should give it to you for free (shed some money for Marketing purposes)

If No:
1- If its your choice to "help out", then you have the option not to help out any more... go somewhere else...
2- again, if they nicely ask you to promote their equipment and you agree, they should give it to you for free (shed some money for Marketing purposes)

Either way, you dont have to unless you want to...

On the other hand...
I had a friend who worked for Pepsi... if their company found out they were drinking Coca Cola, they wopuld get warned and consequently can be fired... so if you are at the LDS and are in someway helping out or promoting them, they do have the right to enforce their policies.... its their right.

 

[GQMedic]

Jason,

Good call. A part of what instructors are SUPPOSED to teach students is to wear equipment they are comfortable in in both fit and function.

It's a difficult position you are in as a DM in training, if I remember right. You are expected to perform XYZ. If you've already finished and you are not a DM, please forgive my forgetfulness. Sometimes, XYZ means pushing gear. Of course this feels like a conflict when everything you are taught is to the contrary.

Now, if you're already a DM, you are more at liberty to tell this guy to go suck your big toe.

In either event, you'd be better served bringing this up to your instructor. You wear what you wear because it's comfortable to you and it's function is what you are used to and happy with. This is what we're supposed to teach our students.

If you are still in training for DM, you may have to suck this up a little and jump through your instructor's hoops until you've finished and have been signed off, then you can happily go your own way to DM for an instructor, etc, with a mind set that coincides with your own. I am only speculating here, I don't know how your instructor is working things out with you. Obviously, this does not sit well with you and it's something you want to bring up until you feel satisfied.


Flipside of the coin is THIS:

Your rig may be overkill for the OW class, there's a chance your instructor may think just that. I can't really get into his head, I don't know him/her. It may be something as simple as he/she wants everyone, students and leadership to be wearing/using the same stuff. Once again, I am speculating. I'd be curious to know how this all pans out.

Does this help a little?

jepuskar once bubbled...

I can't argue their point, so I am just not going to help out. Part of being a DM is promoting the practices of your instructor, reinforcing them for the students, setting a good example, and I guess sales. I guess I would not make a very good DM for my LDS, because I will refuse to let anyone tell me what I should dive with for the sake of the store. It really is a shame because I think how I look and manuever in the water sets a good example for the students.

Ohh well, any comments from the gallery?

Jason

 

[GQMedic]

They arn't the only shop that does things like this. And, it's not such a bad idea either from their point of view. It's how they do business and they state it up front. People know what they are getting into ahead of time, so, what's your beef? You don't have to brow beat ZO because he 1. works there, 2. likes how it's set up. It works for him and the rest of the shop's leadership. They have their leadership programs set up this way with these expectations, a candidate has the right to say PASS or OK. If you agree, then you don't have a right to whine about it. You don't have to agree with the "house rules" and you can just move on, but each "house" has it's rules. Deal with it.

ppilot once bubbled...


What is your store called? I'd like to make sure to avoid it if I'm ever in the area.

No offense, but what you said (above) is patronizing, self-serving, shortsighted, and insulting.