Got My DM - But I Don't Want to Dive "This Way"...

[fisherdvm]

And please - for the love of god - spare me the homilies about how great your diving has become since you switched to BP/wings. I have been diving with BP/wings for over a decade, before DIR made it tec-wannabe-chic. I have PERSONALLY seen thousands of excellent divers execute lots and lots of challenging dives in BCDs. Anyone who claims that BCD vs BP/wings is anything more than a matter of personal preference is full of it.

If you think I was giving a homily on the Godliness of BP/W setup, I was not. I simply said it is easier to trim, as the weight is balanced forward on the trunk, and more adjustments can be made to trim the set.

Second, a BP/W is a BCD. So you will have to clarify what is a BCD in your words. There are jacket wrap around BCD's, and also back inflate BCD. And some back inflate BCD that you can insert a metal back plate into, also.

I agree with you, depending on my exposure suit, my jacket BCD works as well as my BP/W BCD. But I think for folks of unusual size, shape, it is easier to trim with the metal backplate. And for me, when I change my exposure wear, the BPW bcd is more forgiving.

But if you dive the same configuration all the time, and same exposure suit, and with a well matched jacket BCD - I agree, there is no advantages of a backplate/wing BCD.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

One note on snorkel; you are required to have it - if you are NAUI standards state you must wear it (policies p. 2.15)

Actually the policy you state pertains to the instructor, not the DM ...

The minimum equipment to be worn by an instructor conducting scuba training in open water includes the minimum equipment required for students plus: a timing device, depth gauge, dive knive/tool and an emergency signaling device."

The reference is with respect to the fact that students are required to wear a snorkel, and therefore so is the instructor.

The paragraph on the following page pertains to the DM as well ...

Instructors and all dive leaders must also be similarly equipped as their students are during training. i.e. when students are using open circuit scuba, the instructor must also use open circuit scuba.

The intent of the policy is not to prohibit the use of BP/W ... or even long hose configuration for the DM. The instructor wears the same as student gear because in the confined water portion of the class the instructor is the person who is responsible for demonstrating skills (the DM may demonstrate skills at the discretion of the instructor, but the instructor is responsible for making sure they are demonstrated properly).

The second reference says just what it means ... dive leaders must be "similarly equipped". It does not mean you have to wear the exact same gear.

Nowhere does it state that a DM MUST WEAR a snorkel. I do wear one ... and I require my DM to carry one ... but to my concern, students can only benefit by getting exposed to alternative configurations. They just be explained properly, and demonstrated properly. But in that respect, a long hose is no different than an inline alternate second stage ... which I'd be willing to bet Peter's shop has no difficulty using for OW classes (since they sell them to newly certified divers all the time).

In general, a DM needs to set a good example. In many ways, students relate to a good DM in ways they will not relate to the instructor. Lots of students just seem more comfortable ... or perhaps just less intimidated by ... the DM than the instructor. With respect to the gear you use, some students will indeed want to purchase the exact same setup you're using. Dive shop owners are certainly aware of this ... which is why they want you in gear they sell. There's nothing wrong with that ... it's good business.

Bottom line is this ... when you are DM'ing a class, the instructor and LDS set the ground rules. The DM either follows those rules or works with an instructor/LDS that has rules they are comfortable with.

That's just part of the shift in mindset you have to make when you become a dive professional ... you are no longer diving for yourself, you're diving for the benefit of the students, the instructor, and the establishment that sold the class.

That said ... the "don't worry about trim" part I really don't agree with. Students will emulate what they see the dive leaders doing. If you don't set a good example, you will not train good divers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[vkalia]

I'll try to explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you. You're gonna have to do some of the work yourself here.

Oooh. A feisty one. I'm quaking in my boots at the put-down already. So give yourself a pat on the back there for putting me in my place with your rapier-like wit. Now that we have established your obvious intellectual superiority, can we move on?

Good.

Nobody wants to find out they threw away $500 on a fancy new BC because their DIR trained OW instructor wasn't free to give his best gear advice. It's not sanctimonious, it's just a practical fact.

And all that happens simply based on the DM's choice of gear, eh? And the automatic conclusion is that if it aint BP/wings, it is a waste of money, eh? And that if the dive shop is trying to steer the customer towards the brands that they carry, they are automatically trying to stiff the customer, and will not help them select something that is right for them?

And all of this is drawn from a sample size of one instructor who wants his DM to wear the same sort of gear everyone else is wearing.

You are right - I *am* having trouble understanding this.

After all, why do you think they are requiring the guys to wear the shops gear? Clearly, it's because they want the instructors to encourage the students to buy their gear rather than what might be best.

And here's a different thought - virtually every LDS that sells gear will have a good selection of kit with different prices and features, and appropriate for local diving conditions. Enough that the diver is able to buy something that meets their requirements. So ultimately, it doesn't really matter too much whether the instructor is diving in Seaquest, Scubapro or Jacque Cousteau's used underwear.

I know it will horrify a lot of people, but you can have fun and dive safely with pretty much any brand of gear. I know divers like to think that if only they have this brand or that feature, they'd be the best divers on the planet, but sadly, it aint so. There are very few lousy brands out there, especially when it comes to personal gear (as opposed to rental gear which gets used heavily).

Provided the dive shop gives them good advice on features, designs and suitability for intended conditions, new divers can buy from whatever selection they carry and get something that will suit their needs. Just b/c someone buys X brand instead of your favorite brand Y doesnt mean that they have wasted $500.

But don't automatically assume that just b/c the diveshop is steering you towards what they carry, they are out to rip you off.

The question is, can you trust your instructors? Are they working for you or the shop?

The question is - why is it an either-or situation, with the shop and the student as adversaries? It is possible for shops to have instructors that are committed to diver development AND making a profit for the shop.

I am not really a big fan of LDSes automatically demanding loyalty from their customers. If anything is guaranteed to p*ss me off, it is an LDS that tries to dictate to me how I should spend my money. Earn my spending, don't demand it.

But at the same time, let's not get too bent out of shape over an LDS trying to make some money here, and let's not attribute the worst of motives to them. It is this last bit that gets my hackles up.

Does that help YOU understand where I am coming from?

Vandit

 

[vkalia]

If you think I was giving a homily on the Godliness of BP/W setup, I was not. I simply said it is easier to trim, as the weight is balanced forward on the trunk, and more adjustments can be made to trim the set.

Sorry, I wasnt targeting you or anyone in particular (although i think i seem to have inadvertently put a burr in Boxcar's wetsuit, which wasnt my intention either).

Second, a BP/W is a BCD. So you will have to clarify what is a BCD in your words. There are jacket wrap around BCD's, and also back inflate BCD. And some back inflate BCD that you can insert a metal back plate into, also.

I thought it was obvious from the context, but you are correct - it was sloppy phrasing on my part. By BCD, I was referring to the traditional BCDs, be they stab jackets, back inflation or whatever - lots of cordura, pockets, etc.

My main thrust was that a working DM should expect to alter his gear configuration to suit the requirements of the workplace, and that this should NOT be too terrible an adjustment.

My second post was directed at the general comments that seem to imply that simply trying to steer customers towards gear carried by the LDS is somehow a violation of trust/ethics/8.5 Commandments/whatever and a gross misservice to the students.

To me, that sounded - and still sounds - like unjustified hyperbole, something at which we at SB seem to excel.

Vandit

 

[vkalia]

Are you gonna be okay? Is there someone we should call?

Yes, that'd be nice. Can you please tell Angeline Jolie that I need her help?

You seem pretty upset about all this. Maybe you should step away from the keyboard for a little while, or breathe deep or something.

I went for a dive instead. Was trying to find and photograph this ghost pipefish that's been hanging around a patch of soft coral but he wasnt to be seen. Still, it was nice to get wet after a morning of reg servicing. Now I am a lot calmer

I can tell you I wasn't kidding you. I know people that waisted lots of money at dive shops because they thought the instructors were giving them their best advice. Then they come on here and find out they paid a whole lot for something that wasn't all that good. I don't know if that qualifies as a profound revelation, but it sure doesn't seem like an irrelevant detail.

I dont disagree with this at all. The whole issue of "LDS vs online" and "how much should you support an LDS" are valid discussion items.

However, just b/c a dive shop is trying to make a profit doesnt mean that they are automatically trying to rip people off. An unethical dive shop will do so regardless of what sort of gear their staff wears. An ethical dive shop will provide good advice AND try to make money (but by offering something that meets the student's requirements).

In this context:

1/ The instructor's request to have the DM wearing the same gear is not unreasonable, even though I dont agree with it.
2/ it is possible for the DM/instructors to wear the shop gear AND offer good advice

My personal bias, which I am sure a lot of people will disagree with, is that people spend too much time obsessing about gear. I see it in photography, another field in which I am fairly heavily involved and I see it in scuba. Ultimately, it doesnt matter so much whether you use Canon or Nikon, Aquatica or Sea&Sea, Seaquest or Scubapro.

Also, I dont think most people are morons. They may not know diving, but they will usually recognize pushy & hard-sell strategies when they see it.

This thread touched off a pet peeve of mine about people extrapolating a lot of motives to LDSes and instructors based on very little information (and that too, info obtained through hearsay). I probably could have been a little more tactful but I was fixing those bloody regs all morning.

Vandit

 

[BarryNL]

In general, a DM needs to set a good example. In many ways, students relate to a good DM in ways they will not relate to the instructor. Lots of students just seem more comfortable ... or perhaps just less intimidated by ... the DM than the instructor. With respect to the gear you use, some students will indeed want to purchase the exact same setup you're using. Dive shop owners are certainly aware of this ... which is why they want you in gear they sell. There's nothing wrong with that ... it's good business.

What I don't get is why the dive shop doesn't simply add a decent BP/W setup to their inventory.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What I don't get is why the dive shop doesn't simply add a decent BP/W setup to their inventory.

This particular shop owner has expressed (repeatedly) the opinion that BP/W and long hose is strictly tech gear and has no place in recreational diving. He's entitled to that opinion ... he happens to run a very successful business. I don't agree with his opinion ... but I respect his right to have it, and to run his business accordingly.

It's not his responsibility to change shop policy to accommodate the DM.

I can see both sides of this issue ... at least the gear issue ... and to my concern the most appropriate solution would be for Peter to simply let the instructor know he's not comfortable with the ground rules, and therefore will not be willing to help out with those classes. The instructor will then either find a way to resolve things to a mutual satisfaction level or find another DM ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[grazie42]

I sometimes think that Instructors/DMS take the "same gear" to sell gear-approach too far...
One of my DSs has the logo of a competing LDS sewn on (I bought it cheap 2nd hand) and all the "pro´s" were telling me that I shouldn´t wear it and how I´d better not let the owner catch me in it...So not wanting to cause trouble but also wanting to keep wearing the DS, I went to the shop owner and asked him if it was ok, which it was...

If your instructor isn´t the shopowner, talk to the person who is cashing your pay-checks (or in this case isn´t)...

Edit: Just saw NWGD´s post...guess you need to decide how important your gear is to you...if it was me, and I had alternatives like you seem to, I´d DM for another shop...

 

[Rick Inman]

What I don't get is why the dive shop doesn't simply add a decent BP/W setup to their inventory.

What I was thinking. Funny thing is, Peter is in the Seattle area, and the first time one of these newly certified students hits the water on their own, their are going to run into plenty of BP/W divers, who may be loudly proclaiming the superiority of their bp/w (justified or not). Better to expose this gear choice in the class than after the newb has already purchased their gear, and then wonders why the shop hid this very popular configuration from him/her. At least give them the choice.

First time (years ago) I dived with some good folks from Seattle (like NWGratefulDiver) and talked with them about their equipment choices, I returned to my town skeptical of what my LDS had to say. When I mentioned the gear configurations I'd seen, they broke out the top hat and canes and started doing a very well rehearsed tap dance for me. So I bought my stuff online. And I started a dive club, and several of the new divers from their shop (after seeing my gear) bought their stuff online, too. Finally, the shop started caring Oxycheq and Dive Rite and asked me to put together some BP/W kits for the shop (duh!). They have since sold THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS worth of BP/W type gear, and continue to do so.

Still, they won't allow the stuff in their classes. Which is why, as I begin my DM training, I have made the choice to go IANTD. I find it surprising that you, Peter, would be surprised that a PADI or NAUI or SSI shop would require a poodle jacket and snorkel. DMs who want to use bp/w should stay away from the "mainstream" agencies. Even if you find some shop or instructor of the caliber of NWGD, they would be the exception, not the rule. And if you ever have to relocate or changes shops, you're back to the myopic POV that is deeply ingrained in the mainstream agencies.

 

[Hank49]

Just to stir the pot a little. Why is it any different requesting a DM candidate to show up in gear similar to what his students are wearing than it would be for someone to show up for a DIR class with a standard jacket and short hose?