PADI Rocks!!!

[Walter]

I have seen way too many posts on the evils of PADI or how PADI screwed me.

Without PADI I may never have discovered Diving. The Underwater world is a completely new world, so I am thankful to PADI for introducing me to something completely amazing.

I would never hold this agency or any other liable for my skills - or lack thereof (I know my own limitations and abilities)

PADI ROCK ON!!!

I agree, they are an excellent marketing organization.

 

[diverdowndh]

I am currently a PADI DM candidate (why won't I just put it in my sig??)... I get tired of reading/hearing the PADI promotion on every page of their training materials but - there is very good information there for anyone to read or reseach elsewhere. Yes, they should make every diver have 900 hours in the pool and twice that in an OW setting before turning them loose on "our" reefs. Only then could they be so environmentally safe to the reefs as us "experienced" divers who know it all. But the bottom line is that scuba is not that hard to do and with the equipment that is available today it really is easier than ever. While I don't go around banging a drum for PADI, I just see no reason to be so adamantly against them when they really do offer something valuable for the general public. Obviously there are things that they could do differently, I think I learned/experienced more in the first day of Rescue than the whole AOW experience but that still did NOT stop me from reading all there was in the AOW DVD about EVERY one of the specialties. Was I required to do them all? Nope. Should the instructor have made me/us work thru them all? To be an advanced diver, probably yes. But, with the money that the instructor got for it or really, the little time that I was required to invest, I don't think so.

Yes, PADI has it's problems, money making seems to be its biggest downfall, but IMHO, they offer a really good way to get people in the water and promoting, yes I said promoting, the sport that I certainly LOVE. Because of this promotion I can buy really cool equipment that is really easy to use, and safety has probably never been what it is now. Without the interest in diving, which PADI has certainly given a BIG leg up to, development on the equipment/practices we take for granted would almost definitely be years behind where it is now. PADI basher? Definitely not me, even though I've had my PADI moments....

 

[Blackwood]

actually, the agency has a lot to do with it. They put together the framework of the class, the content, they provide the training for the instructor (indirectly), the quality control (or lack thereof), and so on.

I quote that because it bears repeating.

yes, PADI does sanction it's instructors, but it does not control them remotely. Does PADI even know about this? It's easy to do nothing but complain anonymously on the internet. It's just as easy to report what happened to PADI. PADI. The Way The World Learns to Dive. If they know about the incident, they will investigate it and take whatever actions they deem necessary.

But they can't do anything and shouldn't be expected to if they don't know about it.

I agree, PADI can not and should not be expected to be aware of every incident. It is not omniscient.

It can be expected to monitor the continued fitness of its associated instructors.

Just like a school who hires crappy teachers shares responsibility for poor education, a dive agency who certifies crappy instructors (or, through inattentiveness, allows them to become crappy instructors) shares responsibility for crappy instruction.

That said, I must admit that I wouldn't run a for-profit dive training/publication agency much differently. The more lax the requirements to become and remain an instructor, the more people will become instructors, the more students will be buying product. It's a good recipe for profit.

 

[Hank49]

Hi Hank,

I still wish they'd quit killing my local fish. I do realize that in some places tourism dollars can sometimes encourage local changes in resource management. Of course, the tourism industry does some damage of it's own. Aside from the diving pressure itself, there is the issue of shorline development.

I know that the dive industry continually denies much responsibility in reef damage but I have seen different with my own eyes and have plenty of it on video. LOL

Hi Mike,
I agree that in many cases, diving may only be the lesser of the evils that can affect a reef environment. But I think diving itself and the desire of divers to preserve the beauty they see underwater is a plus for the remaining reef systems. So when I see the upper edge of a barrel sponge cracked off by divers hanging on in a high current area....well, it's something I can live with. It beats the big BOOM !!

 

[scarefaceDM]

To the orignal poster:

If you enjoyed your experience...good for you.
I always like it when an OW comes to me and says he/she had fun and learned alot and would like to go dive. They ask me how come I was always in a trimmed position and it looked so easy to turn and hold my depth, acend without holding a line...and why my finning techniques were not the same as them. - My reply...experience and proper ADVANCED training.
- Being a PADI DM - it is nice to hear and see also is shows I did my job to help in the learning experience.

If you take into consideration the length of training time for OW you cannot fault a certifing agency for producing the methodes of teaching BASIC scuba to anyone whom wants to learn.

Even if some folks find there standards to be less than adequate. You will see where a good instructor will shine.

If you want to produce well trained divers from the get-go...your not in the right ocean or lake. It will cost way more than the 250 - 400$ it is for a PADI OW course. and take way more time. which in the end the instructor is not making money.

Producing divers with basic skill sets and expect them to be perfect..is only in a dream.

It takes time and it does takes money. A basic OW skilled diver should look ahead and search out better skilled divers and learn from them. but that also has its faults.

New divers have no clue until they go through OW from ANY agency and see where they are or want to be.

in short...it is the mighty dollar that rules in the end. regardless.

Stay off the bottom and learn.....

Stephen
PADI DM

 

[dave4868]

The list is long and I've written many many pages on the topic. All that can be found with the search function of this board but I'll go into it a little here and try to keep it short.

Diving is mostly moving around the water column but dive training is mostly kneeling. The standards don't require the kneeling but, they only require a few minutes off the bottom total in the whole class. Standards don't require any skills be demonstrated mid-water yet when we dive and things happen, that's where they happen. In other words, we need to perform those skills while we dive. Standards permit practice while not diving (kneeling). Further, the mechanics of trim aren't required to be taught. Gas management isn't taught ("watch your guage" doesn't count) and the "buddy system" is given lip service.

On OW dives students aren't required to function with a buddy durring a dive (most classes are a heard of students following the instructor). To continue with the lack of requirements to be off the bottom, there are NO performance requirements during the tour portion of the dives (the real diving part). Standards literally permit the student to crawl and bounce through the tours and pass. No diving required in this class.

All the student materials are centered around doing things on the bottom so even the methods given for individual task related skills are all messed up. We could go into some of these but I'm trying to keep this short and I need to leave for work.

I would change all the above points in the standards and materials.

When I was teaching I did change all those things in my class. Students never saw myself or staff on the bottom. All skills were demonstrated midwater and horizontal. This was probably the most important change because students tend to copy the staff. If they see it done well, they often do it well with very little practice...it isn't that hard.

Since, diving is mostly just moving yourself around the water column I taught the mechanics of trim and a large part of the class was practicing buoyancy control, trim, propulsion techniques and midwater skills. By the time we went to open water students could dive. By the time the course was completed they had demonstrated that they could plan and conduct an actual open water dive with a buddy.

Thanks for detailing the examples so well.

It certainly makes sense that your method of having students practice pool skills in mid-water would produce better skills compared to PADI's method of being on the bottom most of the time to practice skills, at least immediately after certification.

To help weigh this improved quality versus the possible additional costs, would you be willing to provide some estimate of your typical pool size and depth, pool time, class size, and number of people assisting underwater?

I know what our local PADI situation is like, so that will help me compare.

Any significant departures in such "overhead" costs from a typical PADI pool class?

Drop out rate about the same?

What's the typical scenario in the pool? Are most of your students off the bottom at the same time? Are they allowed to let their fin tips touch the bottom when practicing the skills? Does that still count as "mid-water". Are they allowed to bob to the surface? Is perfection required?

Right after certification, I assume you've seen improved skills in your students compared the typical PADI program, but do you have any objective info on how long it takes the latter catch up in skill level?

I wonder how the two groups compare if they rarely dive.

Might be interesting to know.

Dave C

 

[JohnW]

This is the first time I've given thanks for a Post.

How Refreshing Russ! a great thread.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, I think it is time for you to leave Indiana, move south to southern Florida, live near the water, buy a boat, and dive, dive, dive. Be a dive bum. Your life will change to the point where you no longer care about what anybody else thinks about anything. PADI and other issues will start to disappear from your life. Your attitude will be mellow and you won't have enough time to care about what is on this and other forums. I know you were an "Instructor" and you "dove everyday", but that wasn't diving, that was baby sitting. Go diving, in waters that all you need are the bare essentials. Spear dinner, take it home and grill it. Fresh fish, grilled, no need to smother it in tartar sauce, the only thing to think about is diving tomorrow. Padi? Padi who? Screw it.

No argument here, though, North Florida is more my speed.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks for detailing the examples so well.

It certainly makes sense that your method of having students practice pool skills in mid-water would produce better skills compared to PADI's method of being on the bottom most of the time to practice skills, at least immediately after certification.

To help weigh this improved quality versus the possible additional costs, would you be willing to provide some estimate of your typical pool size and depth, pool time, class size, and number of people assisting underwater?

I know what our local PADI situation is like, so that will help me compare.

Any significant departures in such "overhead" costs from a typical PADI pool class?

We used a number of different pools so the size varied. Most were 10 or 12 ft deep at the deep end.

Average class size was six or so.

I always had at least one DM and sometimes as many as three or four.

We spent about 15 hours in the pool. Usually 5, 3 hour sessions.

Drop out rate about the same?

No drop out to speak of. You lose a few to scheduling conflicts. I can remember a couple I didn't certify due to nonpayment. I remember one lady who was in the pool with us for about a year. She was better in the water than most instructors I've seen. Her skills really were perfect but, for whatever reason, was just scared to death in OW. She tried it here several times and in the tropics and she just would look down and refuse to descend. I don't remember any who failed because they couldn't meet the skill requirements. All in all, the change in teaching method made things easier on everyone, including me. Students could enjoy the diving during OW dives rather than being overwhelmed and I didn't have to have my heart in my stomach because the students could dive. They lacked experience but they knew how to dive.

What's the typical scenario in the pool? Are most of your students off the bottom at the same time? Are they allowed to let their fin tips touch the bottom when practicing the skills? Does that still count as "mid-water". Are they allowed to bob to the surface? Is perfection required?

There are some skills that are needed to avoid drowning before you can get busy with much diving. Of course, at that early stage students could use the bottom but I kept them horizontal rather than vertical. We're used to being vertical and it's a habit that needs to be broken for diving. Some students have a harder time kneeling than hovering horizontally anyway. The first time we're clearing regs or masks, touching the bottom is no big deal.

Boddy position and finning techniques are practiced on land first. In the water we adjust weighting for trim and re-adjust as body position improves. We spent lots of time practicing diving (controling position and movement in the water colum). I wish I could tell you that there is something tricky here but there really isn't.

Is prefection required? I woudln't say perfect but functional. For example, I would expect a student doing a mask R&R to be able to hold their depth within a couple of feet. Being too far off just means we're going to practice some more. I would expect students to be able to do that excersize in buddy teams...meaning that if the maskless diver needs depth ques or a tactile reference it would be the buddy providing that rather than me. I would also expect the maskless diver to notice if his/her buddy was swimming away. Maintaining control and awareness is the primary task, replacing the mask is secondary. When this happens to them on a real dive, I won't be there so they need to be able to handle it without me or I can't certify them.

Right after certification, I assume you've seen improved skills in your students compared the typical PADI program, but do you any objective info on how long it takes the latter catch up in skill level?

Some of the things we taught in OW, aren't taught in any PADI class. PPB introduces some of the concepts but it stops short, is weak on actual performance requirements and isn't a required course. Some divers won't ever be taught much about trim, body position or doing anything midwater unless they luck into a good mentor or go onto technical training. Unless they find the tools someplace, they can't ever catch up.

I saw improvements before certification. Avoiding OW training dives that were total clusters was a major driving force in this. I'm surprised I didn't have a heart attack before I fugured out that all I had to do was teach how to dive in the pool first. LOL Doc, it hurts when I do this...well don't do it anymore.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that it was common to have con-ed students with a range of certification levels who couldn't pass the simple skill assessment that I used. It consisted of (in buddy teams) a descent with a stop at a predetermined depth. Stop and hover above the bottom. Demonstrate non-silting propulsion. Midwater mask R&R. Midwater airsharing. An ascent with a stop at some predetermined depth prior to continueing to the surface. I won't take a diver who can't complete this into OW conditions. I just won't do it. I have done it and there were too many times it didn't work out so good so I won't do it again.

Data would be nice to see. I've thought about conducting a study by administering something very close to my skill assessment to a large number of divers with a range dive experience and training levels and scoring them using abjective measures but I'm short on time and resources these days. It would be interesting and make for good discussion here on the board but you'd think that someone in the industry would be doing it. They aren't and I don't think they ever will. I don't think anyone really wants to discuss the level of dive skill in diving.

I wonder how the two groups compare if they rarely dive.

I don't know other than to say that you can't lose what you never had. I want them to have it before I take them to open water and certainly before I certify them.

 

[emttim]

When I was a PADI instructor I spent plenty of time and effort on discussing all these issues with PADI. They aren't interested in hearing about anything that isn't a direct violation of the standards.

An example, a certain shop who certifies MANY students per year does 20 minute OW dives and the only "tour" students get is when being shuttled to and from the entry to the platform (just a few feet). PADI does NOT have a problem with this because it does meet standards. This is as minimal as minimal can get but the standards were written to allow it. Do you think PADI doesn't know that?

I remember when the "Dive Today Philosophy" was being rolled out. I saw a whole room full of instructors protest to the presenting regional manager from PADI. PADI was NOT interested. I was a pretty new instructor at the time and I thought all those complaining instructors were a bunch of cranky old malcontents. Of course, as I gained teaching experience I came to agree with them and the "Dive Today Philosophy" is number one on my top ten list of things in dive training that are completely crazy.

Now, if you know something about the "Dive Today Philosophy" and read the standards and my complaints of the standards you'll see how it all ties together. For example, I complained above that there are no performance requirements for "tours". There can't be. You see, OW dive one can be conducted immediately after CW dive one and buoyancy control isn't introduced until CW dive three. So, it stands to reason that you can't be doing dives before that and require the student to control buoyancy because they haven't learned it yet. Hell, ascents and descents aren't even taught until CW dive TWO. LOL how are you supposed to go diving and learn anything when you haven't learned anything about the most basic mechanics of diving yet?

This isn't ever going to change because it's more than just a scheduling option in how the class can be conducted. The idea is to be able to give training credit to a sttudent who comes to you after having done a "Discover Scuba Diving" program at a resort someplace. I don't believe, at all, that it's valid training but it is a great sales technique. He, you want to try diving in the pool. A video and a little briefing and they're playing in the pool. Hey you want to see what it's like in the ocean?...touch on a few kneeling skills, go through a flip chart and the students can be dragged over the reef. Hey, you should just get certified, you're already part way there. LOL

I'm not going to respond to everything here, but honestly you seem to be trying as hard as possible to shove PADI's name into the ground, and the more people who disagree with you just causes you to become more desperate in your argument.

Concerning your claims that PADI doesn't enforce any sort of buddy system...uh, yeah my OW instructor assigned everyone buddies and we strictly stuck to buddy teams. An open water dive after the first confined water dive? Don't make me laugh. I hardly see how any instructor is going to have someone go into the ocean without even having all of their skills taught and practiced first.

You're trying to blame an agency for the actions of some ****ty instructors, and honestly, it doesn't exactly paint a reputable picture of yourself in the process. If you have an issue with PADI, or any other agency for that matter, you're not really going to accomplish anything other than making yourself look like a whiner by talking **** non-stop about them on an internet message board. Hell, at this point, I don't really think I'm going to read any posts from you from now on because it'll probably just be a complaint on something anyhow.