Question SCUBA, the self-policing industry

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I live in a country where everybody can go diving without cert and everybody can found his own agency and can say I am instructor and is allowed to teach. So I know people who print their own cards for their own agency. Also I know 2 people who teach cave courses without being cave instructor from any recognised agency.
For recreational diving you have (W)RSTC, a group of agencies that set guidelines. These guidelines must in Europe be within NEN/ISO to be recognised. We have in Europe also the EUF.
Of course none of these self founded agancies is within these groups. But especially beginners in diving don't know that this can be important abroad.

There is an agency here where I did my first course that talked about 'herkenning' instead of 'erkenning'. These words are in Dutch different, but in English, both are more or less recognition. Happely my second cert was from an RSTC agency, so I never had problems abroad. But I did not know as beginner.

To get the iso/nen, this is quite expensive.

A couple of years ago we had in Germany an agency that said they were member of CMAS and said you get a CMAS cert according to the CMAS rules. But the real story was that they were member of CMAS (that was possible in that time), but were not allowed to certify CMAS certs. Also TDI and IANTD for example were member of CMAS, but you never got a CMAS cert there. So member of CMAS was not lied, following the CMAS rules also not, but you did not get a real CMAS cert, you got a cert with a waternymph that looked like the real CMAS logo but it wasn't.
After CMAS said in 2018, no individuell members anymore, this agency changed his name, but then it stated they had an ISO cert. The real thing was, they paid to use the ISO-logo. A big difference.

In technical diving, there is no real iso/nen, so everybody can print cards, teach, whatever and then it is just what divecenter accepts the certs. Certs from TDI, IANTD, GUE are most times accepted everywhere, but some got already problems with IART. Also agencies as SSI had problems in the past (the reason was according to the divecenters who refused tech certs from ssi that instructors who never did any technical dive were in 1 weekend normoxic or cave instructor). Not IART and SSI seem to be better accepted.

An argument you hear in my country quite often is for example from divecenters and instructors that you need a cert for drysuit diving, otherwise no insurance. That is complete ******** and nonsense. Another argument is that you don't have insurance if you dive outside certification limits. Also that is nonsense. In my country this is all within the normal health insurance everybody needs to have.
It can be different abroad, then you have to read your travelinsurance. They sometimes speak about a maximum depth, never about the requirement of a drysuit or sidemount cert.

When I started diving, I have done everything that was outside certs. So as open water diver I did nightdives to 24m. When I got my aow I started experimenting with decompressiondiving on a single tank on air. I also started solodiving. And the complaints from others came. I always said: 'What kind of law this is written in what you tell me? ' And as there is no law, they cannot complaign. I also have taken people on an introduction dive when I was just 3*/dm.
A couple of months ago we had a discussion in my diveclub about a member who was doing dives on his own without being certified as ow/1*. Some really got angry at that diver. I said, as instructors we cannot get angry, we cannot complaign, we only can advice. And we can set rules that he cannot dive without instructor on a club dive. But what he does in his free time, we cannot say anything about it, only advice.

And complaigning about behaviour of others is very easy and is sometimes really talking behind backs. You see it on social media, 'asking about behaviour of others' and then just seeking agreement. But why haven't you asked the diver you are talking about for a reason of why he did things? That is how you have to do it.
In the Thai cave rescue were some divers involved that haven't done any cave course. But nobody was complaigning. They were heros. So even in such a difficult part of diving self training is possible. Probably not for 99.9% of the divers who better can take a course, but it is possible.

I am also an autodidact in diving. My club was too slow, but started complaigning about my diving. But they did not help me to find out what I wanted to do. So I had to do myself. But because of the way people complaign I have done all tech levels withing 6 months. I was 18 months after my open water full cave certified and 2 years after my open water full trimix and did my first 100m dive. Ok, my certifying dive for full cave was dive no. 390 and for full trimix 521. So I have dived a lot in 24 months. But I wanted.
When I look back, I can say that I did not learn anything from aow, nothing from nitrox (just read the book yourself and you know the same), nothing from my normoxic (The certifying dive was just 4 meter deeper than my dive for ART, calculations are all the same, did the course with 1 stage). I learned from my full trimix and my full cave as I had never been in caves before. I learned myself drysuit, sidemount, I learned myself dpv including cave dpv, ccr cave and I learned myself diving with a dual/bo ccr.

Now I only teach normoxic with 2 stages as then it is more than just a few meters deeper from ART. I teach full trimix with 3 cylinders (2 is allowed, but no, too less in my eyes to get prepared for a real 100m dive).
For dpv I was doing that before there were courses, same with the bo ccr. So without people that start doing things, courses will never come. Courses will come when there is a need or an ask for. But there will always be a first without a course. And maybe I am a dinosaur in diving as the CCR cave is there only from about 2010 as course, dpv cave from about 2014 I guess and bo ccr just a year. And when I teach now for example ccr cave, I follow the standards, but I also can tell about my own experience and mistakes. My own mistakes are no secret.
I think that this is also important, don't hide mistakes you made, others can learn about it.
 
Are you reflecting that someone who has suffered a seizure, and has a family history of seizures, should not be allowed to cave dive?
 
Are you saying that you're aware of international laws prohibiting access to SCUBA?
Sure, quite a few actually, just start by mentioning CE in any european CCR forum. Or take your TDI full cave card to Australia and try to dive.
 
I'm pretty sure the Netherlands have self-operated air filling stations at popular places for beach diving such as Zealand.
Yes we have, not only in Zeeland. Everybody can use them to fill cylinders.
I like it, no shop opening hours, and in Zeeland they are on the parkinglots of the divesites. So after diveyou fill your cylinder again and jump in again, or drive to another site.

In Vinkeveen you have also these fillingstations, 7*24 filling on your own.
 
When the jury awards the moron's family a monetary reward that bankrupts the business, or causes the premiums to skyrocket, or get dropped for coverage, and they go out of business (may their negligence is a reason they shouldn't be conducting business), that impacts other divers..
The risk pool for instructors in some places is quite small, even if the liable instructor is forced out of business the remaining members of the risk pool may decide its not worth it and quit instructing. This has absolutely happened in Canada - because agencies couldn't enforce their own standards on terrible instructors. After a few very large claims, a year or two lag, the premiums skyrocketed and half the instructors called it quits. Almost all driven by a couple of bad apples. Yes individual actions have consequences for others.
 
I live in a country where everybody can go diving without cert and everybody can found his own agency and can say I am instructor and is allowed to teach. So I know people who print their own cards for their own agency. Also I know 2 people who teach cave courses without being cave instructor from any recognised agency.
For recreational diving you have (W)RSTC, a group of agencies that set guidelines. These guidelines must in Europe be within NEN/ISO to be recognised. We have in Europe also the EUF.
Of course none of these self founded agancies is within these groups. But especially beginners in diving don't know that this can be important abroad.

There is an agency here where I did my first course that talked about 'herkenning' instead of 'erkenning'. These words are in Dutch different, but in English, both are more or less recognition. Happely my second cert was from an RSTC agency, so I never had problems abroad. But I did not know as beginner.

To get the iso/nen, this is quite expensive.

A couple of years ago we had in Germany an agency that said they were member of CMAS and said you get a CMAS cert according to the CMAS rules. But the real story was that they were member of CMAS (that was possible in that time), but were not allowed to certify CMAS certs. Also TDI and IANTD for example were member of CMAS, but you never got a CMAS cert there. So member of CMAS was not lied, following the CMAS rules also not, but you did not get a real CMAS cert, you got a cert with a waternymph that looked like the real CMAS logo but it wasn't.
After CMAS said in 2018, no individuell members anymore, this agency changed his name, but then it stated they had an ISO cert. The real thing was, they paid to use the ISO-logo. A big difference.

In technical diving, there is no real iso/nen, so everybody can print cards, teach, whatever and then it is just what divecenter accepts the certs. Certs from TDI, IANTD, GUE are most times accepted everywhere, but some got already problems with IART. Also agencies as SSI had problems in the past (the reason was according to the divecenters who refused tech certs from ssi that instructors who never did any technical dive were in 1 weekend normoxic or cave instructor). Not IART and SSI seem to be better accepted.

An argument you hear in my country quite often is for example from divecenters and instructors that you need a cert for drysuit diving, otherwise no insurance. That is complete ******** and nonsense. Another argument is that you don't have insurance if you dive outside certification limits. Also that is nonsense. In my country this is all within the normal health insurance everybody needs to have.
It can be different abroad, then you have to read your travelinsurance. They sometimes speak about a maximum depth, never about the requirement of a drysuit or sidemount cert.

When I started diving, I have done everything that was outside certs. So as open water diver I did nightdives to 24m. When I got my aow I started experimenting with decompressiondiving on a single tank on air. I also started solodiving. And the complaints from others came. I always said: 'What kind of law this is written in what you tell me? ' And as there is no law, they cannot complaign. I also have taken people on an introduction dive when I was just 3*/dm.
A couple of months ago we had a discussion in my diveclub about a member who was doing dives on his own without being certified as ow/1*. Some really got angry at that diver. I said, as instructors we cannot get angry, we cannot complaign, we only can advice. And we can set rules that he cannot dive without instructor on a club dive. But what he does in his free time, we cannot say anything about it, only advice.

And complaigning about behaviour of others is very easy and is sometimes really talking behind backs. You see it on social media, 'asking about behaviour of others' and then just seeking agreement. But why haven't you asked the diver you are talking about for a reason of why he did things? That is how you have to do it.
In the Thai cave rescue were some divers involved that haven't done any cave course. But nobody was complaigning. They were heros. So even in such a difficult part of diving self training is possible. Probably not for 99.9% of the divers who better can take a course, but it is possible.

I am also an autodidact in diving. My club was too slow, but started complaigning about my diving. But they did not help me to find out what I wanted to do. So I had to do myself. But because of the way people complaign I have done all tech levels withing 6 months. I was 18 months after my open water full cave certified and 2 years after my open water full trimix and did my first 100m dive. Ok, my certifying dive for full cave was dive no. 390 and for full trimix 521. So I have dived a lot in 24 months. But I wanted.
When I look back, I can say that I did not learn anything from aow, nothing from nitrox (just read the book yourself and you know the same), nothing from my normoxic (The certifying dive was just 4 meter deeper than my dive for ART, calculations are all the same, did the course with 1 stage). I learned from my full trimix and my full cave as I had never been in caves before. I learned myself drysuit, sidemount, I learned myself dpv including cave dpv, ccr cave and I learned myself diving with a dual/bo ccr.

Now I only teach normoxic with 2 stages as then it is more than just a few meters deeper from ART. I teach full trimix with 3 cylinders (2 is allowed, but no, too less in my eyes to get prepared for a real 100m dive).
For dpv I was doing that before there were courses, same with the bo ccr. So without people that start doing things, courses will never come. Courses will come when there is a need or an ask for. But there will always be a first without a course. And maybe I am a dinosaur in diving as the CCR cave is there only from about 2010 as course, dpv cave from about 2014 I guess and bo ccr just a year. And when I teach now for example ccr cave, I follow the standards, but I also can tell about my own experience and mistakes. My own mistakes are no secret.
I think that this is also important, don't hide mistakes you made, others can learn about it.

You move me man


 
A few years ago I dived the Mediterranean in Spain on typical recreational dive RIBs. There are many dive shops in these holiday locations. They all have pretty strict requirements for checking your cert cards and insurance (e.g. DAN) is mandatory. When you get on the RIB you have to hand over your cert card and insurance card (pre apppp days) to the boat coxswain/skipper (it's a RIB!) and they'd stash those cards in a box whilst you dive.

The police, yes, The Police 👮👮🚓, would regularly come around on boats and check each dive boat for the certification and insurance tickets around the common dive sites.

Maybe that concentrated the minds of the dive shops to check the certificates...


Of course there is the issue of someone qualified years ago. Last week I was diving at a Sandals resort. They asked for certification cards but they do not recognise most of mine (trimix, CCR, cave...), so I dig out a card I got over 10 years ago: Rescue Diver. Totally fine, had a lovely time being put into the experienced group and left alone to enjoy the diving.

Prior to diving I had insisted on doing a check dive in their pool to ensure all my kit was there and working (BP + wing + longhose of course!). Only took a minute to confirm all was good.

However, I happen to be someone who regularly dives and have that solo mentality -- only I am responsible for my actions, nobody else. What if I've rocked up with that card and had not dived for 10 years and all my skills had atrophied? Worse than that, "in your head" you think you're a great diver as you were all those years ago...

Obviously diving in warm (28C/85F) and clear (50m+/165ft) visibility waters with a max depth of 18m/60ft is pretty easy! Maybe easy enough to get back on that bike?


Next weekend am diving in UK seas for the first time this season. These will be cold water (9C/48F) dives in crappy visibility (1m/3ft to 2m/6ft) -- it's always horrid this time of year, probably in less than great surface conditions. Dives will be CCR around 40m/130ft for 90+ mins with 40+ mins of deco floating off the wrecks and drifting a mile or so downstream under individual SMBs.

The dive boat won't check my skills -- it is a taxi service. Most everyone on that boat is an "independent diver" and there's not much buddy diving (and in those conditions, it's very hard to keep tabs on "buddies"). Nobody else on the boat will be "in charge" and check me and my kit. There's absolutely no dive police in the UK.

This places the onus on every diver to ensure that they take it easy and properly do all kit building checks during the days prior to the dive; being fastidious on the dive checks before jumping in; during the dive running through the standard drills. In essence treat those first dives of the season as a training dive.


Of course, this is being posted into the Basic Scuba forum, so much of these risks are mitigated using the Buddy system and benign conditions. There's still the individual responsibility to be honest with themselves to not take unnecessary risks, nor overly rely upon others to save them from themselves.
 
I live in a country where everybody can go diving without cert and everybody can found his own agency and can say I am instructor and is allowed to teach.
Can you get insurance while teaching for an agency you created?

I know someone who has been trying for a long time to get insurance for an agency he is trying to create, and so far he has been unsuccessful because insurance companies don't like his standards.
 
Can you get insurance while teaching for an agency you created?

I know someone who has been trying for a long time to get insurance for an agency he is trying to create, and so far he has been unsuccessful because insurance companies don't like his standards.
Yes you an get insurance for that. But it's Europe. There is not stated that you have to be member of a 'recognised' agency. So then all kind of teaching is accepted. Of course there will be checked if safetey rules are followed. But that is not that hard most times of course.
 
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