Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[The Chairman]

Elena and I were at Thanksgiving dinner last night with a bunch of friends. It's no secret, but a lot of my friends are divers and a good number of those are even instructors, instructor trainers and Course Directors. In this case there were at least three PADI Course Directors and they all had something else in common: their Revos are all for sale. Mind you, I'm certified on a Revo. It's a solid unit with a good reputation. So hearing this kind of surprised me. What's going on? I have to admit that these three course directors were a little more than reticent about the underlying politics and economics surrounding this phenomenon. The more I pried, the more cryptic they got. To a one, they all thought I should simply ask about it on ScubaBoard and see what I came up with. To be completely up front, I was double dog dared by one to make this thread only to be triple dog dared by another. The third just smiled and nodded their head. They all think the politics are too hot to speak openly. From what I could gather, they are being told that they can't teach Revos here in South Florida where they live. Moreover, you should forget about being a Revo instructor down here unless you plan to work for only one shop. One shop. Wow. When have we ever thought that training could or should be exclusive to only one shop? How could that be good for Revo? For the industry? I live in a place that has more dive shops than gas stations and apparently, none of them are being allowed to sell or train students on the Revo. Can that even be legal? It boggles the mind.

Mind you, I've dove a lot of rebreathers and feel it's about time to make up my mind on which one to invest in. Competition has never been greater among rebreathers, especially when you consider the limited market share available to them. There's a lot of great units out there. In that regard, a unit has to stand out on many fronts to be really desirable and for an instructor. That means there has to be a clear path to being able to teach on it. No surprise, but that's how a number of us justify the expense. Only, that doesn't seem to be possible with the Revo in South Florida right now. Until I have some good answers, I don't think a Revo is in my future at this point.

So what are your thoughts and observations? Do you like this kind of monopoly? Do you have anything to add about what's happening with Revos here in South Florida? I would love to get more than cryptic statements and allow this cat fully out of it's bag.

 

[Superlyte27]

Well, this should be fun...

As some of you know, I dove a rEvo for almost 4 years. It was the first (and at that time the only) rebreather I had ever dove. I thought it was the bees knees. I loved diving it. I couldn't imagine anything better. But then I dove other units. In fact, the story played out like this. John B. begged me to try an Optima. I said, "fine, let's go do a short dive". I surfaced 10 minutes later cussing at him, for I realized in 10 minutes, it was time to sell the rEvo.

You see, diving that rEvo was great, as long as I had nothing else to compare it to. Today, I'm certified on many units, and while I still think the rEvo has some good points to it, now that I have over a 1000 hours on a unit, I know that a lot of it is just marketing hoopla that isn't REALLY necessary. When I was new and scared of rebreathers the thought of 5 cells was inviting. The idea of a scrubber monitor was important. And oh, 2 independent scrubbers really made a lot of sense. What if I did pack one wrong... the other would catch the mistake.

Well, today, I know that none of those things are necessary for a diligent CCR diver. Factor in the terrible work of breathing at different trim levels, and the attitude of the creator (paul's grip on the rEvo has no affect on me whatsoever, I am not a rEvo instructor, and would never intend to be one) and it's easy to pick another unit.

I think most of the people buying rEvo's are first time CCR divers. Let's face it, the rEvo has been marketed well. But I think most people are figuring out that there are better units to dive, for less money, better customer support.

---------- Post added November 27th, 2015 at 09:23 AM ----------

Oh, and surely you realize it's not just S. Florida right?

 

[paulraymaekers]

.... and the [text removed - mod edit] attitude of the creator (paul's grip on the rEvo has no affect on me whatsoever, I am not a rEvo instructor, and would never intend to be one) and it's easy to pick another unit. I think most of the people buying rEvo's are first time CCR divers. Let's face it, the rEvo has been marketed well. But I think most people are figuring out that there are better units to dive, for less money, better customer support, [text removed - mod edit]. Or in this case, [text removed - mod edit]. Oh, and surely you realize it's not just S. Florida right?

sadly you don't have the courage to post your name under a post, [text removed - mod edit]....

it seems clear that I cannot always please everybody, [text removed - mod edit]

Paul Raymaekers

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Interesting. The Revo was on my short list of back mount rebreathers and if we'd have gone that direction we'd have used Mel Clark anyway for our instructor, so the south Florida politics wouldn't have been an issue.

I'm a firm believer that a cave rebreather instructor should be an instructor who dives that particular rebreather in caves a lot.

As for the discussion above, there's a wide range of options in mCCR to eCCR rebreathers. The decision of whether to go with an mCCR, a more minimalist end of the spectrum eCCR (possibly flown manually using a low set point most of the time) or a full bells and whistles all the options eCCR is largely philosophical, but I have serious issues when any group decides it knows best and then sets out to restrict the sales or training of a particular unit and actively suppresses what should be a free market.

 

[paulraymaekers]

Interesting. The Revo was on my short list of back mount rebreathers and if we'd have gone that direction we'd have used Mel Clark anyway for our instructor, so the south Florida politics wouldn't have been an issue.

I'm a firm believer that a cave rebreather instructor should be an instructor who dives that particular rebreather in caves a lot.

As for the discussion above, there's a wide range of options in mCCR to eCCR rebreathers. The decision of whether to go with an mCCR, a more minimalist end of the spectrum eCCR (possibly flown manually using a low set point most of the time) or a full bells and whistles all the options eCCR is largely philosophical, but I have serious issues when any group decides it knows best and then sets out to restrict the sales or training of a particular unit and actively suppresses what should be a free market.

there are always 2 sides of the story.

the other side is that when you make an agreement with someone, you stick with that agreement. You just don't break that agreement because you get an opportunity to make some quick money.

 

[Jax]

there are always 2 sides of the story.

the other side is that when you make an agreement with someone, you stick with that agreement. You just don't break that agreement because you get an opportunity to make some quick money.

That's called capitalism. It really is okay to make money. The best will advance. If you have to crank down on restrictions to make sales, it does not reflect well on your product.

 

[pensacolaracer]

While I don't agree with the rEvo instructor policy, I certainly understood it before I bought my rEvo.

In all honesty, when I purchased it, I also had no intention of becoming an instructor. Today, as mentioned above, it would probably weigh fairly heavy on my decision.

I've met Paul. He has dove off my boat. I don't think I would even jokingly refer to him [text removed - mod edit] even out of context.

On one side of the coin, he keeps tight control of who becomes one of the instructors. On the other, IMO, you won't find a bad one.

Unfortunately, that same statement can't be made about other units available to train on here in Hawaii.

Lastly, and I just can't help myself... You know this post would get a bigger targeted audience on Rebreatherworld.

One last last thing. Given your location and description of the issue, I feel I could win a $100 bet on who at least one of your dinner guests was.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

there are always 2 sides of the story.

the other side is that when you make an agreement with someone, you stick with that agreement. You just don't break that agreement because you get an opportunity to make some quick money.

Ah...I see. I may have interpreted this incorrectly.

My initial comment was intended to be supportive of rEvo, as event though I didn't buy one, I recognize the niche it fills and I hold the rEvo instructors I know in high regard.

More specifically, when I commented on a group of people restricting the market, it was in reference to what Pete described as rEvo instruction in south Florida being limited to one shop due to politics peculiar to Florida. I presumed that was the result of shops supporting other brands and restricting rEvo from competing by not letting instructors teach on the unit.

However, your response makes me think that it's possibly rEvo limiting it's own options by being overly restrictive on the shops and instructors who can teach on the unit, perhaps through an exclusive relationship with a single shop.

If I were an instructor in the position of not being able to teach on a unit I own in the area where I live, then yes, that unit would get sold. They are free to do that.

If the issue is one of rEvo not allowing more shops and more instructors and thus more instructor choice in Florida for consumers, due to an exclusive arrangement with one shop, then it's a problem of rEvo's own making and my sympathy pretty much evaporates. You'll either figure it out and revise the priorities, policies, and agreements, or you'll lose that market share. Either way it will be your decision and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

If it is an exclusive arrangement that is limiting your options, then that was probably a horrible mistake, given the importance of getting a good match between student, instructor, and the environment where the equipment will be used. Consumer choice in instruction is important, and an exclusive agreement is a great way to cut your own throat in the tech/cave diving world by alienating everyone who is not a fan of a single shop and it's set of instructors.

Kudos to you for standing by that agreement, but making that agreement will probably cost a lot in the long run.

 

[kelemvor]

Does anyone care to clue the rest of us in on what exactly this ominous sounding "revo instructor policy" is?

 

[The Laconic]

I love threads about Florida cave diving politics, and I'm sure they'd be even better if I had the slightest clue what was going on.